Bush on Vietnam

[bascule]

So, was anyone else appalled by Bush's shaky grasp on history and his attempts to use one of the bloodiest conflicts in which the US was engaged in recent history to push his Iraq agenda?

 

Iraq is a situation where there are no good choices. Staying or leaving both entail profound negative consequences which must be factored into any decision. Bush and the partisan hacks who support the war continue to drum up the dire negative consequences of a withdrawal, completely glossing over the dire negative consequences of remaining.

 

But Bush has taken a conflict he willfully skirted (while somehow Kerry, a decorated veteran, managed to take the heat on Vietnam) and used it to metaphorically argue against one of the few things one of the most corrupt US presidents of all time actually managed to get right.

 

The Washinghton Post has an interesting take:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/23/AR2007082301835.html?nav=hcmodule

[Pangloss]

It's all just typical ABB haymaking, IMO. Fodder for the simpleton talking heads of the media and the nation's important late-night comedy industry.

[john5746]

I think he can look at history and compare it to recent events just like anyone else. The anti-war crowd has been trying to compare it to Vietnam for a long time. Now, Bush does it in relation to pulling out and they complain. Can't have it both ways. It is a mess like Vietnam and pulling out will probably make it worse, like Vietnam. Of course, one could argue that we could stay 5 more years and still have a mess, like Vietnam. Also, with Vietnam, we had one enemy to lose to who took over when we left. In Iraq, we don't know who is going to take over and solidify the Iraqi people.

[iNow]

Also, with Vietnam, we had one enemy to lose to who took over when we left. In Iraq, we don't know who is going to take over and solidify the Iraqi people.

 

Exactly. When we left Vietnam, there was a clear group which would take the reigns of power. In Iraq, there is no such group, and we must begin each discussion of how to move forward knowing that we are choosing the "least bad" option.

 

Bush's recent speeches are very strange indeed, suggesting our only mistake in Vietnam was that we didn't stay longer. I find this method of drumming up support disrespectful to the soldiers who fought there, the soldiers currently finding, and the public who are being asked to swallow this line of garbage.

 

 

Here's a news flash: Today President Lyndon Johnson passed a highway beautification bill. The bill basically said that his daughters could not drive in a convertible on public highways.

[geoguy]

So, was anyone else appalled by Bush's shaky grasp on history and his attempts to use one of the bloodiest conflicts in which the US was engaged in recent history to push his Iraq agenda?

 

Iraq is a situation where there are no good choices. Staying or leaving both entail profound negative consequences which must be factored into any decision. Bush and the partisan hacks who support the war continue to drum up the dire negative consequences of a withdrawal, completely glossing over the dire negative consequences of remaining.

 

But Bush has taken a conflict he willfully skirted (while somehow Kerry, a decorated veteran, managed to take the heat on Vietnam) and used it to metaphorically argue against one of the few things one of the most corrupt US presidents of all time actually managed to get right.

 

The Washinghton Post has an interesting take:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/23/AR2007082301835.html?nav=hcmodule

 

It's just the latest in a series of 'let's try this angle'...meanwhile the parrot is still dead. This weekend the angle is it's Malaki's fault. The President and his group play Americans like fish on a line...give the surge a chance...as if it's a new ball game...then it will be Malaki gone and 'give the new Iraqi leadership a chance....on the 5th annversary of the American aggression itll be a new PR campaign and strategy...stay the course 'there is light at the end of the tunnel'. Americans are fools if they keep lapping up the garbage.

[iNow]

Geoguy, I understand your frustration, but PLEASE... stop lumping the actions of this government on the people ruled by it. It makes me listen to you less, despite the fact that we agree on SO much. mmmkay?

[Pangloss]

Actually I think that he made a valid point there and made it in a fair manner (he said "if"). Let's cut him a little slack; he's clearly making an effort to be more respectful in that area.

 

I also feel a bit humbled for not making that point myself. I came off a bit partisan-right in post #2 above. It's pretty valid, I must admit, to state that this is equally a PR move on the White House's part. This is all about public opinion.

[geoguy]

Geoguy, I understand your frustration, but PLEASE... stop lumping the actions of this government on the people ruled by it. It makes me listen to you less, despite the fact that we agree on SO much. mmmkay?

 

I understand your desire to be excluded from the aggression of your country but the USA is a democracy and your representatives of the American people have voted several times to continue to support and fund this aggression. words are nice but what counts are actions. I'm not equating American action in Iraq with the Third Reich but Americans are even more non-credible when they use the 'gee whiz' moral defense. Every american can speak out, vote and make a difference after the fact of aggression but still choose not to. It's incredible the American people willingly sent the same folks back to their seats in the Congress.

 

Please also be equally as vigilant to advise posters not to use collective words such as 'Iraqis' or Sunnis' or 'Muslims' or 'Republicans'. Don't use the word 'the military' or 'cowboys' or any other term above the level of the individual.

[Reaper]

I understand your desire to be excluded from the aggression of your country but the USA is a democracy and your representatives of the American people have voted several times to continue to support and fund this aggression. words are nice but what counts are actions. I'm not equating American action in Iraq with the Third Reich but Americans are even more non-credible when they use the 'gee whiz' moral defense. Every american can speak out, vote and make a difference after the fact of aggression but still choose not to. It's incredible the American people willingly sent the same folks back to their seats in the Congress.

 

Please also be equally as vigilant to advise posters not to use collective words such as 'Iraqis' or Sunnis' or 'Muslims' or 'Republicans'. Don't use the word 'the military' or 'cowboys' or any other term above the level of the individual.

 

 

You nailed it. I just wish that every American was listening to you right now, because the few Americans who are active and well informed in politics are losing the fight here. I sometimes feel uneasy about this, because in a world where nobody cares and everyone is seemingly content in their ignorance, I sometimes have to ask myself what the hell can I possibly do?

[iNow]

Please also be equally as vigilant to advise posters not to use collective words such as 'Iraqis' or Sunnis' or 'Muslims' or 'Republicans'. Don't use the word 'the military' or 'cowboys' or any other term above the level of the individual.

You can use all the collective words you want, like citizens of the US. What I am telling you is that you are wrong the moment you speak of all in one generalized way. You are painting with too broad a brush and you are missing several important details. I personally voted against Bush either time, I personally spoke to all that I could reach to convince them to do the same. I personally voted members to congress that have supported change, and I personally am getting tired of you not recognizing this.

[geoguy]

You nailed it. I just wish that every American was listening to you right now, because the few Americans who are active and well informed in politics are losing the fight here. I sometimes feel uneasy about this, because in a world where nobody cares and everyone is seemingly content in their ignorance, I sometimes have to ask myself what the hell can I possibly do?

 

It's not enough for folks to care or have an opinion. That's easy. It's actually, as you say, doing something about it. Something that impacts their own lives.

 

1938

 

"Fritz, what do you think of Hitler?"

"I don't like him. ... what type of mustard is there for the bratwurst?"

 

10 years later

 

"Fritz, did you support Hitler"

"Not me, I never did like him. Didn't vote for him. Don't blame all us Germans."

[bascule]

I understand your desire to be excluded from the aggression of your country but the USA is a democracy and your representatives of the American people have voted several times to continue to support and fund this aggression. words are nice but what counts are actions. I'm not equating American action in Iraq with the Third Reich but Americans are even more non-credible when they use the 'gee whiz' moral defense. Every american can speak out, vote and make a difference after the fact of aggression but still choose not to. It's incredible the American people willingly sent the same folks back to their seats in the Congress.

 

I appreciate the "actions speak louder than words" sentiment, however I'm not sure exactly what you want me to do. I live in a county that is practically European in its character. A Republican has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected here. Our city has passed resolutions calling for both a withdrawal from Iraq and for the impeachment of Bush. Any action I took locally would just be preaching to the choir.

 

I've participated in several locally organized writing campaigns to our US Representative and Senator. I almost considered participating in a sit-in at our Representative's office, however that resulted in at least one of the participants being arrested.

[Reaper]

It's not enough for folks to care or have an opinion. That's easy. It's actually, as you say, doing something about it. Something that impacts their own lives.

 

1938

 

"Fritz, what do you think of Hitler?"

"I don't like him. ... what type of mustard is there for the bratwurst?"

 

10 years later

 

"Fritz, did you support Hitler"

"Not me, I never did like him. Didn't vote for him. Don't blame all us Germans."

 

Well, yes, but what I meant was that its gets a lot harder when a large part of the population isn't involved in any of that and allowing our current leaders to get away with anything they want. Not to say that I'm using that as an excuse, personally I try to stay well informed and avoid supporting the wrongdoers in anyway I can. In addition I'm taking part in an environmental club here at my college.

[Pangloss]

It's not enough for folks to care or have an opinion. That's easy. It's actually, as you say, doing something about it. Something that impacts their own lives.

 

1938

 

"Fritz, what do you think of Hitler?"

"I don't like him. ... what type of mustard is there for the bratwurst?"

 

10 years later

 

"Fritz, did you support Hitler"

"Not me, I never did like him. Didn't vote for him. Don't blame all us Germans."

 

I agree with this. iNow posted above that he voted against Bush both times, and I can understand his frustration at being lumped in, but actually I think that's part of the problem -- people refusing to actually make a decision at the polls, but rather continuing to vote following predispositions without pausing to reflect on the current situation (I'm sure that's not the case with iNow, but I think it's the case with most people who vote like that; put another way, saying you voted against Bush twice is no defense against this accusation).

 

I voted for Bush in 2000, and I voted for Kerry in 2004. How many people here can say that? How many people do you even KNOW who can say that? I ACTUALLY CHANGED MY MIND. Why? Because I talked to people, I kept an open mind. And most importantly, I didn't bang a podium and insist that nobody was hearing me. In short, I asked questions, and when those questions were answered....

 

I LISTENED!

 

How many people come in here and post their ideological nonsense without ever bothering to read another word that anybody else here has to say? WHAT VALUE IS THERE IN THIS? What is the freaking point? If your mind is closed, what exactly are you doing, either in here OR AT THE VOTING BOOTH? How can you possibly feel your vote has any value at all if there was never a chance that you would ever vote another way?

 

Of course, this goes absolutely TWO WAYS. I doubt most people here actually realize this. Most of you reading this now probably think "yeah sure, he's right, but I'm still voting Democrat". You're not part of the solution, reader, you're part of the problem. Just as every-freaking-bit as the guy who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. Every freaking bit.

 

So yeah I agree with geoguy on this. I don't think it's appropriate when he castigates all Americans for their collective behavior, no, but I absolutely agree when he talks about the need for people to step up and start paying attention.

[iNow]

How many people come in here and post their ideological nonsense without ever bothering to read another word that anybody else here has to say?

I'm sorry, what'd you say? I wasn't listening.

 

 

So yeah I agree with geoguy on this. I don't think it's appropriate when he castigates all Americans for their collective behavior, no, but I absolutely agree when he talks about the need for people to step up and start paying attention.

Double Ditto on that. I absolutely stand behind this, am glad to see more people supporting this, am excited about others who will do the same very soon, and appreciate the fact that we are here discussing it (which means that many people, in fact, already are listening, stepping up, and encouraging others to do the same).

[Reaper]

If more Americans don't stand up, natural selection will bite them in the ass. One assurance I have is that this will not last forever.

[Pangloss]

I'm sorry, what'd you say? I wasn't listening.

 

LOL!

[john5746]

1941

 

"Hey John, what do you think about Hitler?"

 

"I don't like him... The German war machine sure is kicking the crap out of everyone over there"

 

"Yeah, you think we should go over and fight? I mean, Hitler did declare War on us."

 

"That's because Roosevelt keeps sticking his nose where it don't belong. I got a Canadian friend who thinks they shouldn't be over there as well. It just makes them hate us more and causes more deaths"

 

"Your right, we got the Japs to take care of, let the Brits and Soviets wear em' down" "Maybe the Canadians will help turn the tide"

 

LAUGHTER

 

"I wish the German people, especially those Jews would fight - its all their fault. I mean some are speaking out against them, but what actions are they taking?"

 

"Yeah, gimme that steak."

 

 

 

I

I voted for Bush in 2000, and I voted for Kerry in 2004. How many people here can say that? How many people do you even KNOW who can say that? I ACTUALLY CHANGED MY MIND. Why? Because I talked to people, I kept an open mind. And most importantly, I didn't bang a podium and insist that nobody was hearing me. In short, I asked questions, and when those questions were answered....

 

I did the same thing. I came to the conclusion a little quicker than you, but probably because I never really like Bush. I was just hoping for more fiscal responsibility. So this forum didn't change my mind, but it has on other things