¿Female beauty?

[Paralith]

Paralith said :

 

I'm saying that a more tractable female's fidelity will be easier for her mate to control

 

Not wanting to be rude and nasty - but my reaction to this comment is : "Yeah, right. And pigs can fly also."

 

Short of locking women in prison and setting highly paid eunuchs as prison guards, it is not possible to control women to that extent. They are independent and lateral thinking people, and will find a way to escape from such an overbearing husband. Any woman who has an emotional reason to be unfaithful, will succeed in doing so. Any any man who thinks he can control women is likely to end up unknowingly raising bastards.

 

And that is a personal and emotional reaction on your part. Which only speaks well of your personality, since you clearly don't believe that women ought to be so controlled by anybody other than themselves - and I believe that too. But that doesn't change the reality of what gains reproductive success and what doesn't. Especially considering that it's not necessarily that men actively think that they want to control their wives and girlfriends. A man probably isn't going to look at an anorexic girl and think, "Ah ha! I can control her! I claim that one!" It's that he has an evolved, but unconscious desire for a tractable mate, and that he may find himself attracted to this girl and others like her, but won't necessarily be aware of why that is. This why I think it's important to acknowledge and be aware of these influences - so that we put ourselves in a position to choose how we will behave, and not just be directed by indistinct gut feelings.

 

Just think about the modern cultural ideal of love. Union, compatibility, understanding, faithfulness. And a darn good system for successfully raising your offspring, while being secure in the knowledge that they are in fact yours. Even feelings like love probably originated for these "selfish" evolutionary reasons. That doesn't make such feelings any less valuable or wonderful; but that's still no reason to fool ourselves about the reality of their nature.

[SkepticLance]

Paralith said :

 

A man probably isn't going to look at an anorexic girl and think, "Ah ha! I can control her! I claim that one!" It's that he has an evolved, but unconscious desire for a tractable mate

 

There is a wealth of research evidence to show that there is a very high degree of agreement amongst males as to what consitutes an attractive female. In other words, us males all agree on who is sexy.

 

I know from personal experience, talking to other guys about gals, that we do tend all to agree, with minor variations. We may disagree on just how attractive someone is, but if one guy says a gal is a knockout, you will rarely get any other guy saying she is ugly. We all agree she is good looking, though perhaps to varying degrees.

 

Anorexic and starving women are not attractive. Full stop. That is true for all males except perhaps a very few who are essentially psychotic (There is a tiny minority who are sexually attracted to 8 year old boys too. There is always a psychotic variant.). Quite simply, men have not evolved a sexual attraction to anorexic women. For most of us, the opposite applies.

 

There is a minority of males who want to control women. I regard that, also, as psychotic. Mind you, we all want to be able to influence and persuade people, including our spouses. That is not the same as control.

[Firefly]

ok to paralith, have you not noticed you are completely contridicting yourself?

 

You say that men are attracted to anorexic women cause they can be controlled and have children they know are theirs. However you are also saying men are attracted to women who are fertile. That is completely contradicting yourself as anorexic women are not fertile! So how can a man be attracted to an anorexic women in the hope to have children? It doesnt work.

 

Your argument is incoherrent and makes no logical sense. But no offence.

 

Also just the idea of men being attacted to anorexic women is completely gross. Ew have you actually seen one in person? They are anything but attractive.

[iNow]

I believe Paralith is arguing that men are attracted to control, and visible weakness in the female allows one method of achieving this control. He has used anorexia as an example (I think due to a female professor he had once suggesting this to him).

 

I tend more to Lance's stance on this, that this "attraction to weakness so we may control" is the exception, not the rule. We have evolved to be attracted to cues of health and fertility, and the potential that the mate will allow herself to become a vehicle for our offspring. That's about it.

[Paralith]

I think there's a little confusion as to the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to say that anorexia is a universally desirable female trait in humans. I'm defending that there is an evolutionary basis for some men desiring controllable women as an alternative mating strategy. As INow says, I used anorexia as an example of an outwardly obvious condition that might correlate with a weak will. I could just as easily have chosen shyness instead. Many animal species, including primates, will have several alternate mating strategies that a male can take advantage of. Some males will be stronger and be the leaders of the troop and defend their females, other weaker males will sneak in a mating or two with a willing female when the leaders aren't looking. Obviously being the stronger male is preferable, as you get your pick of the litter - but if your genes and/or your upbringing prevented you from fulfilling that goal, it's better to get some offspring somewhere, than none at all.

 

Also, the professor in question was originally mentioned by SkepticLance, so all I know of what she said, I know through his post. He said that her statements about men desiring women because they seemed controllable were fallacious. I was just trying to show that there is a legitimate reason why men would want a controllable female. And there is a lot of human culture that is geared toward controlling a woman's reproduction, in various ways, for the same reason.

 

I'm a girl, by the way. And I promise, I'm not anorexic.

[SkepticLance]

Human males actually have two main strategies for reproduction.

 

1. The Casanova tactic. Love 'em and leave 'em.

 

2. Marriage and family. Quite the opposite. Commit to one woman, and have a family with her.

 

To Paralith.

 

With the absolute greatest of respect, it is really, really difficult for a male to understand a female and vice versa. As a female, you will be like the psychologist I mentioned - presenting really weird theories, because of a lack of understanding of males. I have no doubt your understanding of what women like in men is about 100,000% greater than mine. The reverse also applies.

[iNow]

Many animal species, including primates, will have several alternate mating strategies that a male can take advantage of.

This is the key point. There are trends, and there are individual differences. There is no "one size fits all," but a series of options weighted across one'e specific combination of nature and nurture that lead up to the final mating choice.

 

I'm a girl, by the way. And I promise, I'm not anorexic.

Sorry to call you a he. Nothing personal.

 

 

 

To SkepticLance,

 

Isn't a third option "both A and B?"

 

Also, understanding the opposite sex isn't the issue. Put your focus instead on understanding the person, and you'll do just fine. We are more similar than we are different.

[Paralith]

Human males actually have two main strategies for reproduction.

 

1. The Casanova tactic. Love 'em and leave 'em.

 

2. Marriage and family. Quite the opposite. Commit to one woman, and have a family with her.

 

To Paralith.

 

With the absolute greatest of respect, it is really, really difficult for a male to understand a female and vice versa. As a female, you will be like the psychologist I mentioned - presenting really weird theories, because of a lack of understanding of males. I have no doubt your understanding of what women like in men is about 100,000% greater than mine. The reverse also applies.

 

These are the accepted strategies, yes. And I'm not saying that the weak female strategy is 100% for sure a newly discovered strategy, either - just that it is in fact a plausible hypothesis for another minority mating strategy.

 

The difficulty in males and females not understanding each other is actually one of my primary interests when it comes to human behavioral ecology. Basic differences in reproductive interests are the origin of the differences in male and female mindsets that can make them so confusing to each other. I think that by looking at things from the evolutionary perspective, we can become somewhat less mystifying to each other - and just in my personal experience, this kind of study has already helped me a lot. So I respect that since I don't have a male mind, my understanding of male mentality can't be as complete as yours - but I think you are underestimating both of us in our capacity to understand each other. If you think my arguments in this thread are really 100000% nonsensical relative to reality, then perhaps we can discuss it more.

 

To INow - I've always tried to make it clear that when it comes to evolved human behaviors, trends and averages are really all we can speak of with certainty. If I failed to do so in this thread, I apologize. And, no offense taken for the gender thing.

[iNow]

Perhaps we could break the discussion down two distinct paths.

 

1) What do you find appealing in a potential mate with whom you desire nothing more than a one-night stand?

 

2) What do you find appealing in a potential mate with whom you desire a long-term, multi-year, cross-context relationship?

 

 

Please, don't just say "big tits." I think that's a given for both.

[dichotomy]

Perhaps we could break the discussion down two distinct paths.

 

1) What do you find appealing in a potential mate

 

My blue-vein junket pump>

 

...and big tits.

 

sorry, I could not resist.

 

Practice restraint, practice restraint, practice restraint...

 

Also, I’m not sure if this has been mentioned. Many men like the ‘small, light, large eyes and cute’ woman not so much for their perceived easy control. But for the fact that most men have a care taking need to express. The ‘small’ woman also resembles a child that should be protected and provided for.

[Paralith]

Perhaps we could break the discussion down two distinct paths.

 

1) What do you find appealing in a potential mate with whom you desire nothing more than a one-night stand?

 

2) What do you find appealing in a potential mate with whom you desire a long-term, multi-year, cross-context relationship?

 

 

Please, don't just say "big tits." I think that's a given for both.

 

I feel bad for the OPer. We snatched up his thread and dashed off in another direction with it.

 

Personally, I've never really liked the idea of a one night stand. Just not my cup of tea, as it were. If I'm going to sleep with a guy, even if the situation may end up as a one night stand, I'd still want to do it with a person who has the potential to enter into an actual relationship with me. I'm going to look for evidence of certain personality traits, and not just cuddle up with the first pretty boy who ogles me. I like a guy with a calm self-confidence (aka not a cocky asshole), greater than average intelligence, who is considerate and loving, but also has an unapologetic sense of humor and is easy to talk to. It definitely isn't easy to get an accurate reading of these things in say a club or a bar situation, but at least looking for hints of them is better than nothing. Though I'm kind of out of touch with that whole scene anyway, I've already found my long-term mate.

 

haha, and I just have to mention that I find it interesting that the two situations you list correspond very nicely with the two human male mating strategies that SkepticLance listed.

[iNow]

Personally, I've never really liked the idea of a one night stand. Just not my cup of tea, as it were.

You are female. A one night stand could result in your need to devote (at absolute minimum) nine months worth of resources to that one night's decision. For the male, he gets an offspring, an orgasm, and has not really lost any significant resources in the exchange. It's a maximal return for minimal expenditure for him, and a life altering event for her. It's no wonder that there are different "feelings" about such encounters which are gender specific.

 

 

Now, with the advent and improvement of contraception, there are definitely exceptions to this norm which has evolved through the ages.

[Paralith]

You are female. A one night stand could result in your need to devote (at absolute minimum) nine months worth of resources to that one night's decision. For the male, he gets an offspring, an orgasm, and has not really lost any significant resources in the exchange. It's a maximal return for minimal expenditure for him, and a life altering event for her. It's no wonder that there are different "feelings" about such encounters which are gender specific.

 

 

Now, with the advent and improvement of contraception, there are definitely exceptions to this norm which has evolved through the ages.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself - except that reliable contraception hasn't been in effect in human populations long enough to affect any significant changes in the genes of our behavior. I suspect that the behavior that comes with it is an extension of the behavior of young females. Before a female becomes sexually mature, she has the ability practice mating behaviors during a time when she's not in danger of becoming pregnant by an undesirable male through her inexperience. This is part of a hypothesis explaining the behavior of many a teenage girl - wanting to dress sexier and like older women, becoming very interested in boys, and getting catty with each other. (Since human males commit to their families much more than most other animals, so too do human females compete more with each other to get the best man for the job.) Being on contraception allows this freedom to experiment and hone reproductive skills to continue well past the normal age.

[iNow]

Being on contraception allows this freedom to experiment and hone reproductive skills to continue well past the normal age.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the behaviors of 9 to 12 year old girls are being extended through college years and beyond as a result of birth control? I don't think you're wrong, but it's not a thought I've personally conceived and I'm curious to hear you expand a bit. That is, of course, if you're so inclined.

 

 

In many bird and fish species, there is a role reversal, and parental investment is much heavier from the male than the female. I'm not a bird or a fish though.

[Paralith]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the behaviors of 9 to 12 year old girls are being extended through college years and beyond as a result of birth control? I don't think you're wrong, but it's not a thought I've personally conceived and I'm curious to hear you expand a bit. That is, of course, if you're so inclined.

 

not ALL the behaviors of a 9 - 12 year old, of course, but as far as experimentation with the opposite sex is concerned, yes. And experimentation isn't necessarily intercourse, either, but it can be just practice looking sexy, how to flirt, and how to compete with other females. So if you combine this sense of freedom with an older woman, I think you're more likely to get promiscuous behavior than you would otherwise.

 

In many bird and fish species, there is a role reversal, and parental investment is much heavier from the male than the female. I'm not a bird or a fish though.

 

Indeed - the jacana, a wetland bird, is a popular example. One female mates with multiple males, and the males are the ones who sit on the nests and hatch the eggs and look out for the chicks. The females are even larger and more aggressive than the males, a situation usually reversed in other animals. One hypothesized reason for this kind of reversal is the extreme difficulty in raising offspring in the jacana's environment. They nest on lilypads or other floating vegetation in swampy areas, and there are tons of predators waiting all over the place for a chance to snatch up a baby jacana. If they fall in the water, they're pretty much doomed. So the female tries to have lots and lots of babies, and the males keep a close eye on each of their offspring.

[YT2095]

gah, They`re ALL nice after enough Beer

[iNow]

gah, They`re ALL nice after enough Beer

 

Dude... If you're drinking enough beer that you're having sex with a bird, I think you've been sniffing the chemicals over your beakers for too long.

 

 

 

[SkepticLance]

This idea that gals practise 'sex' befor epuberty does not sit well with me. I have an alternative theory.

 

This is based on the observation that :

 

Guys hunt status

Gals hunt beauty

 

My theory states that these two gender specific behaviours are now instinctive, though instigated by sex hormones, and have been programmed into our species by a million years of evolution.

 

Reason :

Females in their prime reproductive age (teens and twenties) are strongly attracted to high status males, so it makes reproductive sense for males to seek maximal status.

Males of any age are strongly attracted to beautiful females, so it makes reproductive sense for females to seek maximal beauty.

 

Since this is based on sex hormones :

1. There is some gender cross over. Some males seek to make themselves better looking and some females seek status. This is because both genders have both sex hormones. However, as a generalisation, it is mostly gender specific as above.

2. The behaviours reach their greatest power and influence during the years that sex hormones are at their peak. Teens and twenties.

 

Before puberty these behaviours are present, but do not consitute 'practising' sex. They are present because, even in prepubescent times, females have more female hormone, and males have more male hormone.

Young females practise dressing up, and putting on mother's makeup.

Young males engage in status games such as 'play' wrestling.

 

Males will do almost anything to gain status, including painful and dangerous activities, such as racing high powered street cars.

Females will do almost anything to gain beauty including hours of shopping, hours at the hairdresser, hours putting on makeup etc.

 

Our fantasies reflect this. The prime fantasy during teens and twenties involves sex/romance. However, the second most powerful fantasy for males is gaining status - becoming the hero, the guy everyone looks up to. For females the second most powerful fantasy is becoming utterly beautiful - the femme fatale.

 

My theory states that this behaviour has become so important that evolution has turned it into an instinct, programmed into our genes. It operates even when no member of the opposite gender is there to observe the results, so the behaviour has become virtually independent of sex.

[Paralith]

This idea that gals practise 'sex' befor epuberty does not sit well with me. I have an alternative theory.

 

This is based on the observation that :

 

Guys hunt status

Gals hunt beauty

 

My theory states that these two gender specific behaviours are now instinctive, though instigated by sex hormones, and have been programmed into our species by a million years of evolution.

 

Reason :

Females in their prime reproductive age (teens and twenties) are strongly attracted to high status males, so it makes reproductive sense for males to seek maximal status.

Males of any age are strongly attracted to beautiful females, so it makes reproductive sense for females to seek maximal beauty.

 

Since this is based on sex hormones :

1. There is some gender cross over. Some males seek to make themselves better looking and some females seek status. This is because both genders have both sex hormones. However, as a generalisation, it is mostly gender specific as above.

2. The behaviours reach their greatest power and influence during the years that sex hormones are at their peak. Teens and twenties.

 

Before puberty these behaviours are present, but do not consitute 'practising' sex. They are present because, even in prepubescent times, females have more female hormone, and males have more male hormone.

Young females practise dressing up, and putting on mother's makeup.

Young males engage in status games such as 'play' wrestling.

 

Males will do almost anything to gain status, including painful and dangerous activities, such as racing high powered street cars.

Females will do almost anything to gain beauty including hours of shopping, hours at the hairdresser, hours putting on makeup etc.

 

Our fantasies reflect this. The prime fantasy during teens and twenties involves sex/romance. However, the second most powerful fantasy for males is gaining status - becoming the hero, the guy everyone looks up to. For females the second most powerful fantasy is becoming utterly beautiful - the femme fatale.

 

My theory states that this behaviour has become so important that evolution has turned it into an instinct, programmed into our genes. It operates even when no member of the opposite gender is there to observe the results, so the behaviour has become virtually independent of sex.

 

I don't really see how different your theory is from mine. If you recall, I myself said that intercourse isn't necessarily a part of the practicing - the key component is practicing mating behaviors. And, making yourself look beautiful, we both agree, is a mating related behavior. I agree that through evolved influences, these desires are present in the different sexes regardless of the environment in which they are raised - for example, as you said, even without the presence of the opposite sex.

 

However, though culturally not as acceptable or common in western industrialized countries, girls sexually experimenting at a very young age is probably more common than you or I would find comforting - but it most certainly should not be discounted.

[pretty women]

The immense amount of time and money that the average women spends on maintaining or improving her physical appearance has been given many justifications, but "I just like to look my best" is very close to "I just like to look beautiful". It can be reasonably claimed that societies continuing lust for physical beauty is more appropriate to the Stone Age than to the modern Internet Age - the qualities that men find alluring in a woman may be powerful emblems of her health, fertility and resistance to disease, but they say nothing about her moral worth. The valuing of physical beauty may cause emotional pain and considerable injustice, but this does not prevent its continued worship - as a brief perusal of any magazine stand will prove.

 

The increasing number of lawsuits involving claimed discrimination on the basis of looks have made little impact to our attitude, nor have the best efforts of some feminist pressure groups to stop the supposed exploitation of women's body's (e.g. beauty contests) - indeed it can be argued that advances in cosmetics, plastic surgery and a constant media bombardment have increased the pressure on women to be "beautiful".

Edited July 30, 2009 by Mokele
Picture removed

[Tolmosoff]

Man -O- Live. My wife looks like that. I'm really in heaven.

[Theophrastus]

Out of interest, I always knew that bilateral symmetry was a factor in a female's selection of a male, but does it also function, the other way around? I'm guessing the basis for it, would be the difficulty and infertility, associated with deformity and age, which would then become negative traits in a possible mate.

 

Thus the negative sexual appeal of nonuniform attributes such as liver spots, wrinkles, etc.. I suppose that bilateral symmetry, or simplified in my context, physical uniformity, would bear pretty much the same justification as that for smooth skin; youth=fertility, and thus these factors of youth, become a generalisation for the selection of a mate.

 

Any thoughts?

[iNow]

Out of interest, I always knew that bilateral symmetry was a factor in a female's selection of a male, but does it also function, the other way around?

Yes, absolutely it does. Bilateral symmetry is something which is found attractive across both genders, as it is a cue to health and fertility, and also a strong immune system.

 

Asymmetries in body composition tend to be the result of genetic abnormalities, illness/sickness during puberty, and nutritional deficits during growth periods. The first one should be really clear... Obviously, if you're genes are messed up, your body will not form properly. One output of improper body formation is bilateral asymmetries.

 

Also, when we go through puberty, our bone structure and our musculature all undergo vast changes/shifts. However, during this time our bodies are also under great attack from bacteria, virus, and other "environmental insults." This means that our immune systems have to fight off these "insults," and that fighting takes energy away from the musculoskeletal transformations taking place... and the transformations tend to occur more in "spurts" and are less consistent.

 

This use of energy by the immune system (at the expense of use of energy by the changing body) tends to result in asymmetries as well... since the energy which could be used for the musculoskeletal transformations is being diverted to the immune system to fight off attack. This phenomenon is especially apparent in weaker immune systems. Weaker immune systems require much more energy to fight off the environmental insults, whereas a strong immune system can defeat the invader relatively quickly, and by using much less energy to do so. In short, the stronger the immune system, the more energy available to be used for pubescent growth and musculoskeletal transformation.

 

Hence, in addition to being a display for good genes, bilateral symmetry is a pretty solid indicator of a strong immune system.

 

 

Finally, bilateral asymmetries can also result from poor nutrition during our growth years, so a bilaterally symmetric person likely had access to highly nutritious foods and resources, indicating that they (and their family) would be able to provide quality care for any future offspring. In short, bilateral symmetry can be a cue to socioeconomic status.

 

Those in the species who evolved to pick out the best mates tended to have the strongest offspring. The strongest offspring tended to out-reproduce weaker offspring, and through the generations, we've found ways to (with just a short glance) determine the reproductive value of a potential mating partner. One way is waist-to-hip ratio, and another is bilateral symmetry.

 

 

So... yes, absolutely. Bilateral symmetry is found attractive whether you're a male, female, or something in between.

 

I hope this has helped. Enjoy.