everything tastes of vodka

[Paralith]

my point was merely that even tho there may be these high metabolism people there would also be low metabolism people.....

 

Once again, you're assuming that there will in fact be people on both sides of the extreme. And this is an assumption you cannot make for every case. That was merely my point.

 

Also again, I never said they should never be used. I just said in some cases they're not as useful as they are in others. Don't get all riled up over something I didn't say.

[DrDNA]

It looks like some of you might want to start new thread to grind statistics and the scientific method into dust.

I thought this one was less serious....about a taste in one's mouth the morning after.....

[joshuam168]

Once again, you're assuming that there will in fact be people on both sides of the extreme. And this is an assumption you cannot make for every case. That was merely my point.

 

Also again, I never said they should never be used. I just said in some cases they're not as useful as they are in others. Don't get all riled up over something I didn't say.

 

also you cannot make the assumption that there is only one kind of extreme.....in any case "extremes" dont matter.....the fact is that those "extremes" are factored into the average.....did you hear that.....once again the "extremes" are already included in the average! therefore your argument of "extremes" is moot and has no validity.

 

i dont believe in my last post that i said u said they should never be used. but again norms should ALWAYS be used....they provide a basis with which too build a diagnose.....tho i will say noone should be making diagnoses on an online science forum...lol

[iNow]

also you cannot make the assumption that there is only one kind of extreme.....in any case "extremes" dont matter.....the fact is that those "extremes" are factored into the average.....did you hear that.....once again the "extremes" are already included in the average! therefore your argument of "extremes" is moot and has no validity.

 

i dont believe in my last post that i said u said they should never be used. but again norms should ALWAYS be used....they provide a basis with which too build a diagnose.....tho i will say noone should be making diagnoses on an online science forum...lol

 

My man... I'm starting to think that YOU need a drink. Good grief. Why are you arguing this? Paralith has shown tremendous patience, kindness, and softness when posting responses to you, and you throw some uncalled for tantrum.

 

You said that if one goes to sleep and wakes up, they will not be drunk and the effect experienced was psychological. You've since been rightly corrected on this and shown that there are other factors, so why not move on now?

[joshuam168]

My man... I'm starting to think that YOU need a drink. Good grief. Why are you arguing this? Paralith has shown tremendous patience, kindness, and softness when posting responses to you, and you throw some uncalled for tantrum.

 

You said that if one goes to sleep and wakes up, they will not be drunk and the effect experienced was psychological. You've since been rightly corrected on this and shown that there are other factors, so why not move on now?

 

i dont recall throwing a tantrum....hmm i must be mistaken about myself....my bad. and i argue this because he doesnt realize the importance of using norms....which all of the established medical sciences seem to use.....hmmm my bad sorry for trying not to let those who dont know better be misled....for wat is science but to mislead others eh?

 

i dont believe i said that specifically.....my comment allowed for variables...and i havnt been proven wrong about the psychological theory, i have never experienced this before with vodka, so therefore there must be some impactable degree of psychology associated with this phenomenon.

[iNow]

i dont recall throwing a tantrum....

Perhaps you've had a few drinks already. I've heard alcohol has an effect on memory.

 

 

hmmm my bad sorry for trying not to let those who dont know better be misled....for wat is science but to mislead others eh?

Hmmm, indeed. What's the point of a comment like this? Seems a bit tangential, also as if you have some beef with science... But really, WTF?

 

 

i dont believe i said that specifically.....my comment allowed for variables...

 

Well, here's what you said:

 

umm...no. unless u were up drinking until 3 A.M. and then got up at 6 A.M., your not going to stil have ethanol on your breath. after roughly a night of sleep, again depending how much sleep you've had, the alcohol is going to be gone, the tasting of vodka is psychological. especially if its really cheap nasty vodka, i've had that happen with other alcohol, wen i've drank way too much the night before and it was nasty. but i've never tasted vodka in my drinks the next day before. but its definitely not "left over" ethanol.

 

 

and i havnt been proven wrong about the psychological theory, i have never experienced this before with vodka, so therefore there must be some impactable degree of psychology associated with this phenomenon.

Nobody argued that psychology doesn't play a role. We have all been telling you that there are a lot of factors involved with the metabolism of alcohol, and that your statement (which began, "ummm... no.") was not accurate since you had too little information.

 

Trust me mate, I had to take a mandatory 20 hour class on this crap a few months ago, and then explain it back to my probation officer. That, coupled with my semester in psychopharmacology tells me that your little tantrums aren't going to prove me wrong any time soon, and I'd suggest you try to learn from this experience, and correct the mistakes in your thinking.

 

 

At least they didn't make me eat 50 hard boiled eggs in one hour.

[joshuam168]

Hmmm, indeed. What's the point of a comment like this? Seems a bit tangential, also as if you have some beef with science... But really, WTF?

 

no beef....i love science....it was sarcasm...tho sarcasm doesnt show too well in typing. besides one time wen ive had this experience, and the nite before was not a good nite due to alcohol, i've never heard of this before....and my friends drink ALOT. so it cant be due to the fact of alcohol being left over on your breath....and i seriously doubt that all my friends are people who would metabolize it very quickly.

 

i just dont take too fondly too people who try to pass off conventional medicine....unless they have some such proof. tho its not that i hate them trying too theorize....they need too post that as their assertions and not as fact.

 

also in my original comment you may have missed the part where i said "again depending on how much sleep you have had"

[iNow]

i've never heard of this before....and my friends drink ALOT. so it cant be due to the fact of alcohol being left over on your breath.

Have you not read any of the posts in this thread?

 

 

i just dont take too fondly too people who try to pass off conventional medicine....unless they have some such proof. tho its not that i hate them trying too theorize....they need too post that as their assertions and not as fact.

Here, now go read for a while:

 

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh294/245-255.pdf

http://www.intox.com/about_alcohol.asp

http://www2.hurlburt.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060110-019.doc

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa35.htm

http://www.hsc.wvu.edu/som/cmed/alcohol/metabolism.htm

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_298.html

http://nidb.nih.gov/search/searchreport.taf?ipid=34755

 

 

But none of my friends wrote those articles, so they simply must be wrong.

[Paralith]

I do indeed appreciate the power of the average; I use it myself all the time, as I work in biomedical research. So I can also assure you that I don't doubt the work of - well - biomedical researchers. However, after I make my averages, I also take into consideration the range and nature of my data, as that will effect how how representative of reality that average is likely to be. And I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that somehow extremes don't skew averages. It is a matter of mathematics and isn't up for debate. But you are right that extremes that balance each other out - both very large and very small relative the majority of the data - will also bring the average closer to value range where the bulk of the data points lie. But that is a very ideal kind of data set, and you won't always find it in the real world, even with very large sample sizes.

 

I'm not trying to pass off conventional medicine. I'm saying that there is a good reason to not apply only one average - that of the amount of alcohol burned in a given period of time - to a complex situation, and to assume that it will accurately and completely explain the phenomenon occurring. Metabolism especially varies greatly from individual to individual, as it depends a lot on genetics, body condition, and what other elements are currently within a person's system. the OP himself may be an outlier, someone whose metabolism, or with whom the particulars of the specific occasion, pushed him far outside of the norm and average. Which would also explain why you may have many friends who like to binge, but haven't had the same experience as him, because they are closer to the average. But he may not be.

[joshuam168]

hmm....i see where ur coming from now. i will admit ur rite. u cant just consider one norm. but the stil after a good nites rest, emphasis on good, your body will still be rid of most significant amounts of alcohol, whether your metabolism is slow or not.

 

and i wasnt really trying to say "extremes" dont skew averages....but that they are already INCLUDED in averages.

 

P.S. dont criticize my spelling, i do it because its easier. and that my capital letters are not anger but that i dont know how to italicize in these posts.

[Paralith]

hmm....i see where ur coming from now. i will admit ur rite. u cant just consider one norm. but the stil after a good nites rest, emphasis on good, your body will still be rid of most significant amounts of alcohol, whether your metabolism is slow or not.

 

exactly. If the OP had a good night's rest, a significant - but not necessarily total - amount of alcohol will be gone. As we later found out, he in fact did not have a good night's sleep, and the amount of alcohol digested may not have been as close to significant. Too many other variables involved.

 

and i wasnt really trying to say "extremes" dont skew averages....but that they are already INCLUDED in averages.

 

of course they're included in averages. that's how you calculate an average - by including all the numbers in the data set. if we didn't include the extremes, there wouldn't be so much skew. but then again, who decides where the cut off for "extremes" is? instead of getting into that can of worms, averages themselves just have to be taken with a grain salt, though most certainly not ignored.

[joshuam168]

of course they're included in averages. that's how you calculate an average - by including all the numbers in the data set. if we didn't include the extremes, there wouldn't be so much skew. but then again, who decides where the cut off for "extremes" is? instead of getting into that can of worms, averages themselves just have to be taken with a grain salt, though most certainly not ignored.

 

wat u said earlier sounded like you were saying that "extremes" threw off the averages, like they werent included.....my bad, gues i misunderstood u, an im not bein sarcastic this time. . sorry im a 1st year nursing student an it sounded like u were saying that norms shouldnt really be used, so it irritated me....since we use them all the time. lol

misunderstandings hav often ben the cause of many of the worlds problems...

[insane_alien]

exactly. If the OP had a good night's rest, a significant - but not necessarily total - amount of alcohol will be gone. As we later found out, he in fact did not have a good night's sleep, and the amount of alcohol digested may not have been as close to significant. Too many other variables involved.

 

well, 4 hours of sleep is pretty good for me. i suffer from bouts of insomnia.

 

if we assume that my liver is similar to everyone elses and processes 1 unit of alcohol an hour and i know that i drank... more than 4 units. i would still have a significant amount of alcohol in me. that's also judging from my balance(lack of).

 

Anyway, this thread has gone off course a bit. if you want to keep up the statistics arguement, please take it to a new thread. it isn't helping answer my question and while you were arguing about averages i was sacrificing my sobreity for science.

 

so, i had about a bottle of white wine over dinner,

a few glasses of red at a club then we went back home.

after a few hours at home doing... various activities, we were still jumped up so we watched some movies and drank some more.

judging from the aftermath, two bottles of red were consumed by me. then we fell asleep.

i got up not long after to pee. had a glass of oranje juice as well, couldn't taste vodka.

[Paralith]

sorry about that, alien. We're done now though, I think. =)

 

Say, did anybody every guess correctly what you drank the first time? Also, doesn't it stand to reason that you didn't taste vodka after this little foray if you didn't drink any?

[insane_alien]

well, if it is down to the ethanol or the ethanal then it should be expected from any type of alcohol.

 

next bout of 'experimentation' i will stick to my usual staple of ciders. either strongbow or kopparberg pear cider(god the swedes got THAT right) dpending on what pub we start off at.

 

obviously i'll need to repeat the vodka experiment again to discount an anomalous result. but for now i will let my liver recover

[Revenged]

I think some of you need clarification about alcohol metabolism...

 

It's quite straight forward...

 

Ethanol -> Ethanal (acetylaldehyde) -> Acety-CoA

 

 

Alcohol is unlike most substances in pharmacology as it has 'zero kinetics'...

 

Most drugs have 'first order kinetics' where the excretion of the substance doubles if the quantity in the blood doubles...

 

However, this is not the case with alcohol... It excretion is dependend upon levels of enzymes (such as alcohol dehydrogenase) that are saturated with ethanal... Therefore alcohol metabolism occurs at an approximately constant rate...

 

It is approximately constant because various sex, weight, metabolic rate...etc.

 

However, chronic alcohol use does not increase metabolism of alcohol... but you do get tolerance to it's effects... for example, chronic alcoholics can tolerate alcohol and can have blood alcohol concentrations that would kill the average joe blogs three times over...

[DrDNA]

I still think most of you are going further off track.

"......your Cabillac has a wheel in the ditch and a wheel on the track....."- a nickel to anyone that can name the genius that sang that....

 

Again, vodka is not just ethanol and water. Both of which are relatively tasteless and the half life of ethanol does not fit with the timeline. Plus I doubt acohol metabolites (like acetylaldehyde) have much to do with it because they taste nothing like vodka and they are also mostly out of the system in the time frame discussed. Of course something like liver disease or lack of ADH enzymes or other deficiences could problong the lifetimes, but we are still left with Vodka's unique taste. Therefore, alcohol metabolism or lack thereof should have relatively little to do with morning after taste and we are left simply with trace relatively robust molecules in the vodka that contribute to its unique taste in the first place (or even some of their metabolites), which may not be cleared or metabolized quickly, so they hang around (on teeth, gums, tongue, stomanch, throat, esauphagous, airways, perhaps even blood to exchange in lungs, etc) to later bind the receptors on the tongue.

The same happens, in my experience, with other forms of liquor, including burbon, other whiskies, brandy, gin, tequila (especially cheap tequila!!! the next day is that WORST taste with bad tequila !!!), some wines, champagne, etc.

BTW: I can say with some coonviction that this does not happen with GOOD moonshine nor with the 90 or 95% ethanol that I used pilfer from the lab for weekends .....ok I admit it...weekdays too (which was great for spiking watermelons or making hooch or to make martinis )

Now, I definitely need a drink!

[insane_alien]

Again, vodka is not just ethanol and water. Both of which are relatively tasteless and the half life of ethanol does not fit with the timeline. Plus I doubt acohol metabolites (like acetylaldehyde) have much to do with it because they taste nothing like vodka and they are also mostly out of the system in the time frame discussed.

 

I can tell you first hand that the alcohol and ethanal were DEFINITELY in my system in the time frame discussed. i had the oj 4 hours after a frankly massive binge. so massive i don't plan on repeating it.

 

also, read up on vodka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka

"an insignificant amount of other substances" and seeing as most of the vodka i drank was drunk straight i would imagine this would cut down on the other factors involved.

 

if you think your liver can metabolise what i drank in 4 hours, you'd be welcome to give it a shot. we'll get a breathalyser in as well. not thatwe'll need it.

[DrDNA]

I can tell you first hand that the alcohol and ethanal were DEFINITELY in my system in the time frame discussed. i had the oj 4 hours after a frankly massive binge. so massive i don't plan on repeating it................if you think your liver can metabolise what i drank in 4 hours, you'd be welcome to give it a shot. we'll get a breathalyser in as well. not thatwe'll need it.

I'm not going to repeat the exp. I'm sure it would be in my system 4 hours later....and longer. Although it is tempting I forgot that you were only talking about 4 hours. I drifted in thought to assume that it was much longer.

Regardless, if the residual taste were simply because of alohol or alcohol metabolites, why do tequila, various whiskies, rum, etc all leave different tastes in the mouth the next day. Even if one is too drunk to remember what he drank last night, the residual taste (yuch!) can usually identify the culprit (unless, from my experience, it was USP ethanol or really good moonshine). I can state this with some high degree of certainty because I performed the experiment with many different spirits, many many times.

 

also, read up on vodka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka

"an insignificant amount of other substances" and seeing as most of the vodka i drank was drunk straight i would imagine this would cut down on the other factors involved..

I must argue with the author's use of the term "insignificant". Vodka's unique taste compared to other spirits and particular taste compared to brands and grades comes from the "insignificant amount of other substances". If not for these, vodka would taste like USP ethanol cut with distilled water, and it does not taste the same.

 

Quoting from the link you provided (BTW Wiki is a great source but certainly not a reference standard on ANY subject) "A common property of vodkas produced in the USA and Europe is the extensive use of filtration prior to any additional processing, such as the addition of flavourants."

and

"Through numerous rounds of distillation, or the use of a fractioning still, the taste of the vodka is improved and its clarity is enhanced."

So flavorings are usually added, plus we know that filtering and distillation are NEVER 100%, hence the numerous rounds to "improve" and "enhance" (by removing what I ask?).

Even trace compunds in water, which is used by the manufacturer to cut the vodka, adds to a particular Vodka's unique flavor profile (according to that link). Is somthing insignificant if it modifys flavor; especially if we are refering to taste?

 

Finally: for some (perhaps exotic?) vodkas.... "Flavourings include red pepper, ginger, fruit flavours, vanilla, chocolate (without sweetener), and cinnamon. Ukrainians produce a commercial vodka that includes St John's Wort. Poles and Belarusians add the leaves of the local bison grass to produce Żubrówka (Polish) and Zubrovka (Belarusian) vodka, with slightly sweet flavour and light amber colour. In Ukraine and Russia, vodka flavoured with honey and pepper (Pertsovka, in Russian, Z pertsem, in Ukrainian) is also very popular. In Poland, a famous vodka containing honey is called krupnik.

This tradition of flavouring is also prevalent in the Nordic countries, where vodka seasoned with herbs, fruits and spices is the appropriate strong drink for midsummer seasonal festivities. In Sweden, there are forty-odd common varieties of herb-flavoured vodka (kryddat brännvin). In Poland there is a separate category, nalewka, for vodka-based spirits with fruit, root, flower, or herb extracts, which are often home-made or produced by small commercial distilleries."

 

Happy guzzeling!

Best.