Teacher fired for saying Bible shouldn't be interpreted literally

[Glider]

Teachers have a professional responsibility to be respectful of their students beliefs. But firing over that is just lame.

I don't think this is true. Teachers have a responsibility to be respectful towards their students, true. But a significant part of being a teacher is to challange student's beliefs. Respecting the student and respecting the beliefs of the student are entirely different things.

 

Swansont, you have a point, and as I said before I wouldn't have fired him. But I don't agree that he did the right thing. Telling a student to "pop a Prozac" is ridiculous. Sure he might have done that in response to a student upset with him, but he shouldn't have let the situation get to that point in the first place. She was obviously screeching at him because he took a hard line on a matter of faith, which is not his job to do.

 

He needs to focus on control of the classroom environment and presenting material and not worry about whether he has a perfect record converting Christians into scientists.

I agree with this absolutely. It is the teacher's responsibility to control the teaching environment and if it breaks down into a slanging match, for whatever reason, it's down to the teacher. Moreso if the teacher has allowed themselves to become personally involved in it.

[swansont]

Swansont, you have a point, and as I said before I wouldn't have fired him. But I don't agree that he did the right thing. Telling a student to "pop a Prozac" is ridiculous. Sure he might have done that in response to a student upset with him, but he shouldn't have let the situation get to that point in the first place. She was obviously screeching at him because he took a hard line on a matter of faith, which is not his job to do.

 

He needs to focus on control of the classroom environment and presenting material and not worry about whether he has a perfect record converting Christians into scientists.

 

I don't think you can validly assess his motive here as trying to convert anyone.

 

"Often, these students are essentially right out of high school and they take things so personally," Bitterman said. "They really can't distinguish between a critical assessment of their argument and an attack upon them personally."

 

Is pretty spot on. Happens on these boards all the time. Sounds like he said something that challenged their belief system, and they freaked. "pop a prozac" is crude, and not a phrase I would have used, but not much different than "chill out" or "calm down" which is something you might say if you were trying to regain control of a classroom.

[ParanoiA]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. They could have gone to Bob Jones University or something. Instead, they chose to go to this community college.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say either...I missed the mark, sorry. I don't know why it didn't make an impression on me that this is a community college.

 

Except that people aren't entitled to their own set of facts. If someone wants a dogma-filled-but-fact-free education, by all means go for it, but don't ask me to subsidize it, and don't lend it legitimacy by accrediting the school.

 

But this is just more subjective criticism. I'm sure creationists have their own arguments with the same kind of tenacity.

 

I think we go to too much trouble to try to make people see it our way - the religious-free way. Let them run their own schools, learn their own facts - and compete with the rest of us in the job market. How far do you think "god did it" is going to get them? I mean really. Similar to opposing communism - rather than fight them, trade with them so they have to compete with your superior market.

 

These things will work themselves out with time. If religio-education is truly dumbing down certain concepts, then they'll suffer in the job market appropriately.

 

As for the teacher, I guess it was wrong to fire him, but only on a personal level. I wouldn't have felt good about dismissing him if I was the boss. But, I have no issue with employment at will.

[YT2095]

Wouldn`t it have been better to have taken the teacher to one side and said that

"this sort of explaination is unacceptable here at this institute, please refrain from doing so again."

 

also, How "Christian" is it to Sue for money like this? hardly seems to me that it`s something a Genuine Christian would do?

[ParanoiA]

also, How "Christian" is it to Sue for money like this? hardly seems to me that it`s something a Genuine Christian would do?

 

Oh I'm so biting my tongue here...let me just say, dittos....

[Severian]

I agree that it is perfectly acceptable for a lecturer or teacher to express their opinions about thier own religious views at any time, and therefore one should not be fired for calling the bible 'a myth'. However, I get the impression from the article that there was more to it.

 

First of all, it says "Bitterman said that he can think of no other reason college officials would fire him", so it is clear that he doesn't really know why he was fired. And since the the college refuses to comment it is a little bit speculative to suggest that he was fired for calling the bible 'a myth'.

 

From the second article, it seems that he was being insulting to the students, and was so abusive to one student that "she left class in tears". She claimed that he had been insulting toward her and told her to "pop a Prozac."

 

It is kind of difficult to tell what happened, but if he was being abusive to the students, or even just trying to persuade them of his own worldview, I would regard it as a sacking offense. I would certainly get fired if I started a sermon on Christianity in one of my lectures. So unless you know the facts of the case, I suggest we postpone the moral outrage for now.

[Phi for All]

So unless you know the facts of the case, I suggest we postpone the moral outrage for now.

And let's keep what facts we *do* know straight. He didn't call the whole Bible a myth:

Bitterman said he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale" in a conversation with a student after the class [emphasis mine'] and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney.

I completely agree that we don't know all the facts. It could very well be that this was the final straw on a whole camel full of other grievances.

[Severian]

And let's keep what facts we *do* know straight. He didn't call the whole Bible a myth:

 

Are you meaning to imply that I said he called the whole Bible a myth? I did not.

[Phi for All]

Are you meaning to imply that I said he called the whole Bible a myth? I did not.

I agree that it is perfectly acceptable for a lecturer or teacher to express their opinions about thier own religious views at any time, and therefore one should not be fired for calling the bible 'a myth'.

...it is a little bit speculative to suggest that he was fired for calling the bible 'a myth'.

It did seem that way to me.

[swansont]

I think we go to too much trouble to try to make people see it our way - the religious-free way. Let them run their own schools, learn their own facts - and compete with the rest of us in the job market. How far do you think "god did it" is going to get them? I mean really. Similar to opposing communism - rather than fight them, trade with them so they have to compete with your superior market.

 

Um, all the way to the White House? (e.g. Liberty U., Patrick Henry College)

[Sayonara]

Um, all the way to the White House? (e.g. Liberty U., Patrick Henry College)

I think ParanoiA's underlying idea that it will all sort itself out probably stands in that scenario

[ParanoiA]

Um, all the way to the White House? (e.g. Liberty U., Patrick Henry College)

 

Why not?

[JHAQ]

Outrageous . Dawkins & Hitchens are right

 

Outrageous . Dawkins & Hitchens are right .A literal interpretation of the bible would tie anybody in knots anyway with all the inconsistencies & contradictions .

 

Outrageous . Dawkins & Hitchens are right .A literal interpretation of the bible would tie anybody in knots anyway with all the inconsistencies & contradictions .

[MrSandman]

I think the man shouldn't have been fired for saying that the bible shouldn't be taken litterally.However, he shouldn't of suggested as a yes/no he should have said, "I don't "THINK" the bible should be taken litterally." He has the right to voice his opinion.

[swansont]

Why not?

 

Because setting policy based on ideology rather than actual facts is probably a bad thing. Just maybe.

[ParanoiA]

Because setting policy based on ideology rather than actual facts is probably a bad thing. Just maybe.

 

The country was founded by people who believed in non actual facts. Half the country still believes in non actual facts and they vote and put people in office to represent their non actual facts. In fact, me and alot of others really cherish the document written by those founders who believed in non actual facts yet still managed to put together a system that doesn't endorse them.

 

We elect the president. He doesn't get the job unless we let him have it. So if we don't trust his education based on religious ideology, then we don't have to elect him.

[bascule]

Should colleges teach the facts or superstition? I guess that depends on what college you go to...

[MrSandman]

Facts are proven by evidence, so yes, teach what has been povened by evidence to be true. Our founding fathers didn't base their government on none actual facts.

[iNow]

I'd like to teach a class called, "How religion has hindered societal progress, and why we should slaughter it with Mayan enthusiasm." I'd probably be fired if I did this at the school in question, but praised were I to do it anywhere else where intellectual vigor was rewarded.

 

 

It has it's good points. Sure. But, there aren't too many.

[MrSandman]

Yeah, but what does mayan religion have to do with it? JK, lol. Anyways, people spend a huge amount of time debating it when they could be out finding new cool science facts.

[john5746]

Description of the western civilization class at the community college:

 

This course explores cultural, political, literary, and economic

aspects of Western civilization from the practice of absolutism to

the intellectual revolutions of science, agriculture, and philosophy.

This course also discusses the varied conflicts of the 18th,

19th, and 20th centuries. (520:109)

 

It is easy to see that a teacher will need to discuss religion in this class.

 

I remember as a sophmore in college, I was taking an Electrical Engineering weed-out course(so-called to purposely eliminate weaker students before getting further into the major). The teacher for this course happened to be my advisor. My roommate and I thought we aced the first quiz, but were shocked to find we failed it. We marched down to his office to complain and as we got nearer we heard a girl crying. She said, "I've always made straight A's, I've never made such a low grade on a test, there must be some way to get this grade back up." He replied in a squealy voice "Well, you didn't expect to pass this class the first time, did you?" We turned around and left before getting to the doorway!

 

During an exam in that same class, he told us that time was near and if we didn't turn our papers to him before he got to his office, we would get a 0. Couple of minutes later, he left the classroom and we all chased him to his office!

 

On another occasion, he looked up from the blackboard and flipped a bird in my direction and said "you too buddy". I was like WTF? I then realized that someone behind me had flipped him the bird.

 

He smoked in class, I remember an ash trail on the cigarette that seemed to defy gravity. on a couple of occasions, he tried to smoke his chalk and write with the cig! Classic.

 

After cursing him for months, I grew to respect that old man. Maybe if I had failed, I wouldn't feel that way, not sure. I guess my point is that this is part of growing up. I took some classes in the humanities that I thought were total BS. I was the polar opposite of the teacher, but I sat there and listened and got my A, and I probably did learn to look at things a little differently. In the least, I was exposed to different viewpoints and learned to accept them.

[ParanoiA]

Sounds like you adapted and learned to adjust and adapt to get what you need out of life. Also sounds like you were tolerant of others. Imagine that...

 

Good post John. Nowadays the students would get their way and I'd bet he'd have to quit all of his oddities. That's the modern version of tolerance I guess.

[Pangloss]

That's a great story, thanks for sharing it. It reminded me a lot of how much I hated some of the teachers I had (and hated) when I was growing up, and what a positive impact they had on me. It's a shame we've drummed that sort of thing out of the system. We probably knocked out a lot of bad stuff along with it, but it seems to me we might've lost something important as well.

[MrSandman]

Yeah, probably later you'll have to put up with a lot worst crap.

[Reaper]

That's the modern version of tolerance I guess....

 

I don't think there really is a definition of tolerance nowadays. Either people agree with each other, or they ignore or avoid people they don't agree with. And at the same time they attack other people who don't agree with them as closed-minded and intolerant. Our definition of tolerance seems to depend on what the current social trend is....sigh.....

 

 

All we are really doing right now is protecting the right to be utterly ignorant and stupid.