Pioneer brainstorm stretches the envelope of thinking about black holes

[pioneer]

Isn't the data we are discussing the time delay between gamma and the cool energy from a blackhole? If you are correct, this can not be blackhole since something is escaping.

 

One of the conceptual misunderstandings of GR is the nature of a GR reference. If we had an SR reference, with a block of solid D2, because of the distance contraction in our reference, we would see the block appear to get skinnier. At a high enough velocity, the atomic distances would appear to look like nuclear distance, such that, based on what we see, fusion should begin. But it will not, since in the moving reference, the distances remain the same. It is still just a block of solid D2, sitting on the table in the moving or SR reference.

 

If look at the sun, if GR was causing an SR type of reference affect, so distance contract and time slows, fusion should never occur. The heat might be there, but the D2 distances would never get close enough in the SR reference to allow the nuclear forces. We know the distances have to get smaller, or else fusion can't occur. So the GR reference does not follow the same rules as an SR reference. One will not fall forever into a blackhole, since the distances are not SR reference. The reference is the opposite, where time-distance reference, gets smaller so we can get the fast frequency and close distances needed for compaction to occur.

 

Look at it this way, if an asteroid headed toward the GR reference of the sun, if does not slow before enterring. It accelerates the entire way, covering the last bit of distance faster than when it was farther away. That is, if we factor out friction. A black hole would have to be generating negative gravity, or have a friction affect around it, to cause a levitation so we just sit there. Here is one possible measureable example of GR reference. The core of the earth rotates faster than the perimeter. According to current GR references, it should be going slower and lingering behind, but it leads. It is not indicative of an SR reference, but sort of its reciprical.

 

If an asteroid hit the sun, all the sun will do is vaporize it and cause it to be absorbed into the perimeter material. A blackhole can not just vaporize it. It has to compress it immediately, since the amount of space is tiny. The amount of work is much higher since it has to overcome the nuclear repulsion as well as chemical bonding and some ionization. With the blackhole also absorbing energy, it is shooting itself in the foot, since this energy would make it easier to get hot states for matter transformation. The net result is, a blackhole can only compress so much at a time.

[pioneer]

Can someone please prune the pioneer pseudoscientific bullshit into the pseudoscience forum where it belongs?

 

I am only trying to brainstorm this and not just swallow conventional wisdom until other possible scenarios have been at least addressed. I am not married to any one thing, but like to look at more than one angle. I just assumed that is what a scientists is suppose to do. If a scientists is required to put on blinders, then I guess I am not such a scientist.

 

The astronomers pointed the telescope at Markarian 501, a galaxy half a billion light-years away that contains a "blazar" -- a massive black hole that gives off bursts of gamma rays. Some of the material falling toward the black hole gets squeezed into jets that burst from the poles of the object at close to the speed of light. These jets fire off flares of gamma rays a few minutes long.

 

The way I interpret this is, the idea that nothing can escape a blackhole, which was the prediction of math, is experimentally wrong. Sorry for the bad news. Don't blame me , those pesky astronomers did it. Not only is energy escaping but jets of matter. Is it the gamma entraining the matter? If it was, then we have our medium for refraction. Another possible analogy is a big bubble of air floating to the top of a glass of water. It will push up the water, i.e., low energy output, before the bubble finally breaks the surface.

 

One should not be sad about the blackhole. This is a good time since it was getting a little boring. Now there are new things to consider. This will add new life into an old problem, which will advance things further. I was getting a little ahead because I was already working on part 2. It is not carved into stone, but I was brainstorming one possibility.

 

A possibility I really like, which may have nothing to do with reality, but pushes the envelop of thinking, is what if the matter coming out of the blackhole has been so compressed it has formed atoms with 200 protons, just to use a number. This is not possible with stellar gravity. But say this turned out to be the only type of material with the needed refraction. This is not there as a assertion of reality, only a seed for the imagination. Nothing can escape a blackhole, was a good imagination seed in its day.

[Martin]

...One should not be sad about the blackhole. This is a good time since it was getting a little boring. Now there are new things to consider. This will add new life into an old problem, which will advance things further. I was getting a little ahead because I was already working on part 2. It is not carved into stone, but I was brainstorming one possibility.

 

A possibility I really like, which may have nothing to do with reality, but pushes the envelop of thinking, is what if the matter coming out of the blackhole has been so compressed it has formed atoms with 200 protons, just to use a number.

 

Hi Pioneer, nobody said that material falls into the hole (inside the event horizon) and then comes out again! The jets consist of matter which has spiraled in close, reaching great speed and high temperature, but not fallen inside the event horizon. It is fully ionized and presumably gets redirected along magnetic field lines, forming jets which have been observed.

 

The jets are not examples of something "escaping from a black hole", as far as I know. They have been observed for many years but never been presented as such, that I know of. So I would say there is no need for you to "brainstorm" about them.

 

AFAIK there is no matter "coming out of the black hole" and so there is no matter which you can speculate has formed atoms with 200 protons.

 

So this is pretty extreme pushing of the envelope of speculation, and although it is, in its own way, breathtaking, it properly belongs here is Spec forum.

[pioneer]

The astronomers pointed the telescope at Markarian 501, a galaxy half a billion light-years away that contains a "blazar" -- a massive black hole that gives off bursts of gamma rays. Some of the material falling toward the black hole gets squeezed into jets that burst from the poles of the object at close to the speed of light. These jets fire off flares of gamma rays a few minutes long.

 

One of the mathematical assumptions of a blackhole is that matter and energy can not escape. But according to these astronomers both matter and energy is escaping from the poles of the blackhole. Based on that observation, one now needs to change the assumption to; matter and energy can escape a blackhole.

 

All I was doing was trying to brain storm based on the new assumption. I am not married to any of these ideas, but it is time to retool a blackhole. This should be looked at as an exciting time since the blackhole was getting a little boring. Now there are many new possiblities. I still like the singularity angle but the perimeter is a little more dynamic than expected.

 

One scenario to explain the delay in the gamma, is to assume the gamma is propelling the matter in the jet. This medium is sort of opague to the gamma, but gamma's energy pressure is still able to move it out. A good analogy is a big bubble on the bottom of a glass of water. It will push its way to the surface, causing the surface to rise ahead of it. Eventually the bubble reaches the surface, but with a time delay relative to the surface.

 

Since the material and gamma is bursting from the poles, this seems to indicate a type of perpendicular force interaction with equatorial, sort of like the right hand rule, but it may be totally different. It would be hard for matter to systematically enter the blackhole at the poles, due to these blasts. The logical result is the matter will preferentially spiral into the equatorial regions. The fact that the blackhole has to periodically let off steam, suggested that it is over extending itself, but making more energy than it could absorb. Just the vector force addition could imply too much equatorial in, creating the critical vector force for polar discharge.

 

There are different possiblities as to how it could overextend itself. One reasonable possiblity is that if it compresses small atoms this will not be endothermic like larger atoms, but will be very exothermic. This spicey food sort of gives the blackhole gastric gas, so it has to burb, periodically. The burb will also cause a vector force addition, so it can pig out again as the equatorial material reacts to this vector force addition. This would be a good way to maintain stability in wide range of eating conditions.

[Fred56]

“Though they about his cerebrum gyrate, no logical device is the effect.”

[insane_alien]

One of the mathematical assumptions of a blackhole is that matter and energy can not escape

 

no, this is not an assumption. this is a derived effect. the escape velocity at the event horizon(the edge of the hole) is the speed of light. we have other equations that show massive particles cannot reach the speed of light, ever. due to these two observations, logically, matter cannot escape a black hole by normal means. there is hawking radiation but that works on a diffirent principle than the one you are proposing and much much slower.