Chiropractors?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

YT2095 said in post # :

I`ve been to Phsio and acupuncture, and the acupuncture worked the best for the pain, I could hardly beleive it! I had to laugh at the one needle though, it goes in the top of your head, I looked like a damn TeleTubby )

I've seen a guy get acupuncture with a needle that retracts into the handle (so it doesn't go in him) and he said it made him feel better.

[YT2095]

I`m perfectly sure he did, but I went in as a total skeptic!

and can assure you these went in and stayed there as they were timed, my wife and my mate are both witness to this, these buggers went in!

and don`t be fooled into they ther don`t hurt!

some hurt like a complete ba$t and some ya don`t really feel untill the time is nearly up then ya get a dull ache that gets worse over time.

but it DID work!, I don`t know HOW but for some reason it did

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

YT2095 said in post # :

I`m perfectly sure he did, but I went in as a total skeptic!

and can assure you these went in and stayed there as they were timed, my wife and my mate are both witness to this, these buggers went in!

He was testing acupuncture!

and don`t be fooled into they ther don`t hurt!

some hurt like a complete ba$t and some ya don`t really feel untill the time is nearly up then ya get a dull ache that gets worse over time.but it DID work!, I don`t know HOW but for some reason it did

It hurt him even though it didn't peirce his skin.

It's called the placebo effect.

[atinymonkey]

You talk nonsense, claptrap, flimflam and hokum.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

atinymonkey said in post # :

2)Impared nervous system means lowered defenses and immune response

 

3) This contibutes to disease

Now here's the 'cure'. Pay attention. In order to ensure the nervous system has the best chance at fighting the disease, chiropractors align the vertebrae, which in turn alleviates the strain on the nervous system.

 

Now, think carefully. What is the problem with that logic? Is there any? I don't see anything wrong at all, personally. It's all super.

How does the nervous system control the immune system? It's automatic!

[atinymonkey]

You can't see me, nor hear me so I'll explain what I'm doing now:-

 

I'm slowly banging my head against the table, with the sheer frustration.

 

Cap'n hokum! Hurrah!

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You're not helping...

[atinymonkey]

Your not reading. The immune system works better the less things it has to fix. The less it has to deal with, the more efficent it is at dealing with disease.

[YT2095]

"You're not helping... "

 

and you are yes???

[Sayonara]

Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :

He was testing acupuncture!

I think you established your understanding of "negative proof" with the Houdini/telepathy post.

 

It hurt him even though it didn't peirce his skin.

It's called the placebo effect.

That's not really a placebo effect, it's more of a psychosomatic response - which incidentally is an integral part of a lot of complementary medicine.

 

The fact that it's called "complementary medicine" alone should answer most of your questions.

[YT2095]

listen up cap-laundrymat:

 

I really couldn`t care less if you beleive me or not, fact is it worked. end of chat!

[BeckyK]

Blue cross covers chiro for me... I do believe they work for some people. I have had patients show a lot of improvement after going to see on, even after years of physio didn't work for them.

 

They do claim to cure ear infections, etc.. They feel that by having a misalignment, the body goes under stress are your are more at risk for infection.

 

Honestly, I don't know if they work. But if I was really ill, I would try one if nothing else was working.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

So would anyone desperate.

[Sayonara]

So would anyone desperate.

Funny isn't it? Just like those desperate millions who try chemotherapy, radiatherapy, antibiotics and so forth.

 

Pah, the fools.

[BrainMan]

I couldn't care less about about people trying to show that chiropracty doesn't work. That should be the default position anyway. I want good evidence that it DOES work, else I call it crap.

[blike]

Just out of curiosity, does health insurance typically cover chiropractic visits?

[Guest Vinman]

Honestly Blike- I'm not sure. Everything I've learned comes from real world experience, for I am a first year Chiropractic student - heavily engulfed in Anatomy up to my eyeballs.

 

In New York State - more and more insurance companies are beginning to reimburse chiropractors, most require a referral form your primary, some do not. I personally skip my primary doc, and go straight to the chiro - less paperwork, and cheaper for me, the consumer. Many Chiros have a cash based practice and choose not to deal with insurance companies, and they thrive pretty well. I am no expert in this field (reimbursement) and just relaying what I have learned as a chiro consumer

 

When I choose a health insurance company or HMO (for I have worked in Hospitals for the last 6 years) I choose one that covers prescriptions, and NOT chiropractic - because Chiros are cheap already, and god forbid I get a condition that requires chemotherapy or many medications or whatever.... However, there have always been insurance companies to choose from, that cover chiropractic costs. I believe blue cross/blue shield is one of them.

 

I personally HATE drugs and pharmacology. It definitely has its place in medicine... traumas, birth control, cancer... for example. But they can be very, very expensive should you need them. But I refuse to ever take aspirin, muscle relaxers, etc.....Once the script runs out, the condition will come back, and you have nearly masked the problem by not feeling it for 4-6 weeks. An MD visit, plus a script for DRUG X cost about $50 not to mention the time and driving to the drug store, with perhaps 2-3 refills. A Chiropractic visit costs $32 and I feel instant relief and I feel substantially better, physically, almost like after a great workout. My grandfather was on at least 14 different meds before he died at 82 years old- and the sad part was ... 1/3 were to deal with the side effects of the other 2/3.

 

...Don't know how I got on the subject of drugs.... but I have become very aware of the costs of Healthcare, considering insurance coverage and whatnot, and prescriptions are a huge part of the bill.

 

Peace all,

 

 

Chiropractic first, Medicine second, Surgery last.....

[badchad]

I would go out on a limg and say that usually chiropractors are not covered. Chiropractors aren't covered for the same reason you cannot be referred to a Voodoo witch doctor as a "specialist".

 

Chiropractors fall into the category of nonallopathic healthcare. Basically, they're not real doctors. They play very little role in healthcare, if any. In defense of them, there is a definite "mind-body" connection in relation to a person's health. If someone experiences high levels of stress and is under constant pressure it can weaken the immune system. The placebo effect is also well documented.

 

The "placebo effect" is basically what you're paying a chiropractor to do. When people have chronic pains that cannot be cured they turn to more drastic and non-conventional measures. They will then pay a chiropractor to crack they're back, and tell they that they have "re-aligned the life giving force in the spine", or adjusted they're chi or whatever. This makes the patient feel better.

 

Does this help people? Of course. But it is basically the same thing as the placebo effect.

[Guest Vinman]

Wow badchad - you must of had a bad experience with a chiropractor, for that's the first time I've heard that kind of bashing against them. Voodoo and placebo?

 

Not real doctors? I would match my knowledge (post graduation) against that of any MD, for any illness, and the right modality to treat the disease with. I would even go into which drug and what the exact dose would be, and would NOT recommend a beta-2 blocker for heart failure if the patient had a history of smoking.... for example. Our training at NYCC is 100% strictly science based, and like I said previously, specialists in the area of musculoskeletal, nerves and the like. I'm sorry you have such a lowly opinion of us, and would hope you run into a truly professional, and helpful chiropractor soon in your life to give you some insight as to what we are good at. I don't believe I can cure AIDS. I'm not manipulating any life force - I get knots out of peoples backs. I restore the range of motion in a stiff neck, I counsel athletes on improving their bench-press. I reduce the amount of sick days in people with sciatica. And I have the pre and post x-rays and MRIs to scientifically PROVE the now-aligned hip joint isn't surrounded by inflammed muscle and nerve tissue. It's science bro....and what you fail to recognize is that Chiropractors are also Primary Care Physicians, meaning we have to be trained to diagnose any/all conditions, and refer the patient to the proper specialist.

 

I personally will be going into developmental research for children, who have severely debilitating diseases like Muscular Dystrophy or severe retardation. I have seen several children, hospitalized over and over because of their severe deformities unable to even cough effectively because their spine and ribcages resembles the posture of a Jumbo Shrimp. I plan to build and develop body casts, braces, molds and intense physical therapies - to ensure that they aren't too debilitated to cough up a cold effectively, that their severely stiff muscles relax a little and reduce thier heart strain and blood pressure. Or that their chins aren't pinned against their own chests....stuff like that. And I sure as hell won't be using any magic potions, or voodoo dolls in my research. What have you done to help a fellow person? or a child?

 

go to this site and tell me I'm not a real doctor - this is my chiropractic education course by course... tell me - do you see any course with voodoo? Religion? Anything on Chi or life forces? anything on mind-body harmony?

 

http://www.nycc.edu/acadaffairs/dc_curriculum.pdf

 

Now this is the list of course requirements for the MD degree at Albany Medical College and you tell me I'm not a real doctor......notice that the last 2 years of an MD degree is internships....free labor for a hospital.

 

http://www.amc.edu/academic/college/college_course_requirements.htm

 

- now go find some other subject to throw out your ill informed opinion on a subject you obviously know nothing about....

 

 

Peace all,

 

Chiropractic first, Medicine second, Surgery last....

[blike]

Chiropractors fall into the category of nonallopathic healthcare.

I don't think their is anything wrong with nonallopathic healthcare. Both osteopathic physicians and chiropractic doctors realize the value of manual medicine, though the two practice differently. The important thing is that both realize the limits of manual medicine, which vinman clearly does. Comparing chiropracters to voodoo doctors is completely unfair. Good chiropracters realize what they can and can't do, and they stay within those limits. Granted, there are plenty of chiropracters who will claim they can cure many diseases that they clearly cannot. But you can find just as many MDs and DOs who will write books on how to cure cancer by changing your sleep patterns and other nonsense.

 

edit: I've just realized its spelled "chiropractor". Forgive me. I'm too lazy to edit

[badchad]

Okay, okay, I'll tone down my argument and argue for the sake of debate. I'll try and put aside personal biases and have vinamn educate me.

 

 

Our training at NYCC is 100% strictly science based' date=' and like I said previously, specialists in the area of musculoskeletal, nerves and the like. :[/quote']

 

I can't disagree as I birefly looked over the links you gave me. But 100%? you have to have some type of discussion of natural healing powers and "life giving forces", "chi" etc. don't you? (not a rhetorical question). I was always under the impression chiropractors approached medicine with a different slant, or outlook (e.g. M.D. see the body as a "machine", chiropractor's as more "natural" and human"). It's a broad type of question, but if chiropractors approach things 100% science based, how do they differ from M.D's?

 

I get knots out of peoples backs. I restore the range of motion in a stiff neck, I counsel athletes on improving their bench-press. I reduce the amount of sick days in people with sciatica. And I have the pre and post x-rays and MRIs to scientifically PROVE the now-aligned hip joint isn't surrounded by inflammed muscle and nerve tissue. :

 

Okay, heres where we agree. I won't doubt your expertise in all these areas. But again, I'd ask, aren't there more traditional "allopathic" professions to take of these jobs? Restoring range of motion: physical therapy. Improving bench press: personal trainers, exercise scientists. Massage therapy etc.? Again, I guess I'm curious as to how chiropractors differ they're approach to healthcare from traditional healthcare providers.

 

 

 

I personally will be going into developmental research for children, who have severely debilitating diseases like Muscular Dystrophy or severe retardation.:

 

Instead of inquiring, I think I'll politely disagree with you here. Could you provide me with a peer reviewed reference of chiropractor's engaged in reaserch. I'm not familiar with any references (not to say that they don't exist, I'm just admitting I haven't come across one, or maybe I don't know where to look). The only effort I honestly put in to it was searching pubmed for "chiropractor" not much came up. I can recognize good reasearch, I'm curious to see some (not to be meant as a flame, I'm just curious).

 

What have you done to help a fellow person? or a child?.:

 

I'm beginning my 4th year of a Ph.D program in pharmacology and toxicology. My area of study is psychological disorders/drug abuse. Hopefully within 6 months I'll publish my initial "first author" publication. When I do publish, I'll gladly point you in direction. Keep in mind this will be peer reviewed.

 

You can disregard my opinion as "ill-informed" for disagreeing with you. If there wasn't any truth to my opinion there wouldn't be a humungous debate about whether or not your profession was "real" or not in the first place.

 

All I ask is you give me a singel reference for a large-scale clinical study showing me that a technique that is unique to chirpractors (not used in other areas of health) works.

[Chiroguy]

CHIROPRACTIC IS PURE CRAP. I am a chiropractor trying to work of 100K in school loans.

It is based on fallacies. Complete garbage D.D. Palmer was a grocer who made inappropriate cause-effect relationships..

visit this site:

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

[Chiroguy]

NOT recommend a beta-2 blocker for heart failure if the patient had a history of smoking....

 

Beta blockers are for hypertension and not heart failure, also contraindicated for anyone with COPD. Ever hear of Natracor???

 

Ask one of your NYCC instructors to show you a subluxation in a cadaver or on an x-ray?? Then come back with this BS. Ask Dr. Raj to show you his License to practice medicine in the United States. He is an MD right???

 

Read up on cult indoctrinations and then think abou it in Dr. Russ Ebbets technique I class.

 

Not real doctors? I would match my knowledge (post graduation) against that of any MD, for any illness, and the right modality to treat the disease with

 

You are so far gone. MD's get all the anatomy you do, but in two semesters, not three tri-mesters. They rotate through all medical feilds, they complete 1 year of internship, and 2+ years of residency.... You will graduate never seeing anyone with an acute MI, hemmoragic bleed, no skin disorders, etc., etc., etc., AND YOU WILL THINK YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE------ YOU ARE PROOF THAT THIS PROFESSION IS A FALLACY ---- WHY WAS HARVY LILLARD -D.D. PALMER EXPERIENCE NEVER N - E - V - E - R REPLICATED????????

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I recently heard about (true story) two people who went on medical careers. They were cousins. One went and tried to become a doctor, and it took him loads of work to get through med school (duh). The other went to the Harvard of chiropractic schools, did little work, AND the PASSING grade was 28%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Wow.

[Chiroguy]

watch this video from PBS..

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1210/video/watchonline.htm

scroll down to the episode "adjusting the joints"