It's all connected

[Fred56]

Every thing, every object and particle, every photon of energy and wave of matter is where it is now, at the end of the next comma, only because of every single event, every oscillation, every change of phase and every orbit of every electron or star about a galaxy, since the very first event. This is according to the most successful description of our universe that has been built so far.

 

Looking up at some distant star, it is hard to conceive of any connection to it, but there is some remote.

There is a connection. The light that has crossed the universe to effect the recoil of electrons in your eyes is this very thing.

Perhaps this light sped unerringly to the electron in one of your eye's pigment cells, as if it knew it would be there...

[Royston]

There is a connection. The light that has crossed the universe to effect the recoil of electrons in your eyes is this very thing.

 

What's your point ?

 

Perhaps this light sped unerringly to the electron in one of your eye's pigment cells, as if it knew it would be there...

 

What...the photon ? Considering there are billions upon billions of photons that don't go anywhere near somebodies eye, or Earth for that matter...why would you think this ? What's your argument here ?

[Phi for All]

When starting threads it's a good idea to give your readers a reason for discussion, rather than just stating a premise. Remember that you're not here to teach ideas, you're here to discuss ideas.

 

 

 

Fred56, are you suggesting that everything is predetermined? Or are you postulating that some basic form of matter or energy connects us to every other form of matter and energy?

 

Also, can you explain your phrase, "...every photon of energy and wave of matter is where it is now, at the end of the next comma,..."? I found the next comma but a search for all the matter you promised proved fruitless.

[YT2095]

effectively you`re saying that every interaction no matter how distant travels by some sort of media.

 

sounds like a bold statement of the bleedin` Obvious to me

[insane_alien]

effectively you`re saying that every interaction no matter how distant travels by some sort of media.

 

sounds like a bold statement of the bleedin` Obvious to me

 

perfect sumation of the OP. could make it shorter though

 

everything that interacts, interacts.

[Fred56]

Yep, it is "bleedingly obvious" that everything is, or must be connected. This is a direct consequence of Einstein's theories and the observed expansion. This could mean that everything (in a classical sense) is predetermined, that every event determines a chain of causality, so there was a first event, and the causal chain (of every event) goes back to this. I think it's ok to say everything is connected, because of this. Of course, Heisenbergs theory tells us something else, that events are "fuzzy", that a causal chain cannot be determined. The indeterminacy at the quantum level seems to blow a big hole in the idea of a chain of causality. But everything remains connected somehow. That's where I was sort of hoping to go with this, but I got "deleted".

[foodchain]

Yep, it is "bleedingly obvious" that everything is, or must be connected. This is a direct consequence of Einstein's theories and the observed expansion. This could mean that everything (in a classical sense) is predetermined, that every event determines a chain of causality, so there was a first event, and the causal chain (of every event) goes back to this. I think it's ok to say everything is connected, because of this. Of course, Heisenbergs theory tells us something else, that events are "fuzzy", that a causal chain cannot be determined. The indeterminacy at the quantum level seems to blow a big hole in the idea of a chain of causality. But everything remains connected somehow. That's where I was sort of hoping to go with this, but I got "deleted".

 

This is where I think physics falls short not looking at all natural phenomena including life in attempting to generate more grand perceptions of reality. As far as I could care the level of determinism to my life happens to come from the fact I am human. I could do a whole grand amount of things tomorrow or in the next minute if I so choose. This of course ties into many other things such as what do I know to think on for instance but the bottom line is evolution shows something other then that direct chain of causality as so strongly emphasized by some. I mean to really take all life into perspective if such was a strong force by any means then it was pre ordained at the big bang to have a holocaust or many of them to the idea we might kills ourselves via pollution. Then the other more apt reality to me is basically how natural selection has molded life to an extent we can of course learn, even if its at the hand of pain, which is natural. I mean determinism exists in life, but the reality of life shows something else then strict determinism.

 

Life is natural, just like anything else in nature. I think this needs to be realized in relation to bigger questions such as what is everything and why for instance. I mean life exists in the same universe as everything else, by all the same laws and what not. The reality of life, evolution, natural selection and so on I don’t think has been consciously realized to the extent it probably should be.

[Fred56]

P.S. If anyone is still looking for anything at the end of a comma, all I can say is you might need to look up the definition of “metaphor” (and I wish you luck).

 

P.P.S. in case anyone is wondering what my brain-burp was about, here's the little sucker for your perusal and elucidation:

 

Energy and mass are "real" things, but time (the "flow" of energy), and distance (mass separation -two electrons can have a space between them), are maybe some kind of artefact of how we “perceive” them.

Time has no existence, no external reality (other than in our model), like mass/energy does (except distance, or separation is “real” to us).

Time, as an imagined metric, seems to fill a “natural” role in our (virtual) model, but distance is “real” (things are separated by “real” distance), except for quantum superposition.

Superposition conserves quantum properties and distance/separation is imaginary (from its “point of view”). It sure is a strange universe.

[Klaynos]

time is as imagined as space, two events can very easily have time between them but no space...

 

This is really rather funny

[Fred56]

Sure, its probably hilarious, in fact. But without separation, there would be no space and no universe. Time is "imagined", and two "differently timed" events can occur in the "same" place, of course. At least this is what you, me and most other people believe. What's your take on superposition and its apparent immunity to distance? Or are you still rolling around on the floor...?

 

...to continue (/me exhales slowly, draws on pipe...):

 

Time is an apparent property of (classical) entropy/distance. It's appearance (to us), is an artefact of our own brains, and the way they are built. The brain “uses” change to “see” change in the external world. It's all relative. There is no time (we "imagine" it), there is diffusion (separation) of mass due to entropy.

 

The mass/energy equivalence of information exists in the quantised world of very small distances, except for a mysterious property of mass/energy: superposition ("entanglement" of quantum states). Which appears to us to be able to ignore distance, as if space did not exist.... ... .. . oh, right, there's another one: a massless (very small size) particle that travels really fast, that photon thingy. The photon is the "message" we get from the quantum world, which we "convert" into "information" in our brains...

 

There is also a conceptual (philosophical/scientific) problem with our quantum view:

The problem with linking thermodynamic entropy to information entropy is that ...the entire body of thermodynamics which deals with the physical nature of entropy is missing. The second law ...which governs the behavior of thermodynamic systems in equilibrium, and the first law which expresses heat energy as the product of temperature and entropy are physical concepts rather than informational concepts. If thermodynamic entropy is seen as including all of the physical dynamics of entropy as well as the equilibrium statistical aspects, then information entropy gives only part of the description of thermodynamic entropy. -Wikipedia: "Entropy”

 

...hang on, let's think about this, though...

Is entanglement (quantum "information") possibly the (I know this sounds strange) "quantum" way of "dealing" with entropy? We have two different versions of what information is: The "no-cost" thermodynamic view and the quantum view, which has "cost". We can't apply the classical thermodynamic view to quantum "information" (superposition).

 

We know that mass/energy is conserved (throughout the universe, presumably). We know that it "emits" photons, little packets of energy that "convey" information into our biochemical, thermodynamic brains. We know there is another conserved and quantised property that mass "has": superposition, and that this, unlike the photon (a "real" particle), is perturbed easily (by the thermodynamic/quantum world).

 

Edit: The preceding, some of you may have noticed (or not), is using "information" in a classical (no-cost, no-mass) way. When looking for articles about superposition (entanglement) and what sort of information it is, there are a lot about how such can be put to use processing "information", as a sort of "multi-superpositioned" machine that works out, or "knows" every possible state, or outcome, simultaneously. What sort of mass/energy does this information (that is labeled "quantum") have? It isn't due to photons being emitted from a "classical collection" of iron atoms (like a red-hot stove) or an "excited" gas. We might need to start distinguishing between when we mean: "costless" and: "having mass/energy". Photon "information" (the mass/energy of photons impinging on electrons, say in someone's eye) is different from their entangled "state information".

At least I think it is, how about you?

 

...more to come

 

Edit: should have posted this in "a mass of information", seems more relevant here though... but there's a definite, um, connection...

 

What's your point ?

...why would you think this ?

What's your argument here ?

not here to teach ideas, you're here to discuss ideas.

are you suggesting that everything is predetermined? Or are you postulating that some basic form of matter or energy connects us to every other form of matter and energy?

a search for all the matter ...proved fruitless.

a bold statement of the bleedin` Obvious

everything that interacts, interacts.

it was pre ordained at the big bang

I don’t think has been consciously realized to the extent it probably should be.

This is really rather funny

..'chortle. guffaw, har har!'

 

Edit: can some moderator bung this back in Adv Phys where it belongs?