Time can't exist without matter (mass) and motion

[insane_alien]

i will once the leprechauns have left. they're touchy about that sort of stuff. the giraffe doesn't mind though.

[ParanoiA]

So are you all saying that a photon will never be able to be at rest, ever? No matter the potential millions and billions and <how every many zeros you can dream up and add on to the end of that> of years of activity and life in the universe long after we're all dead and gone, no being or force of any kind will ever under any circumstances be able to stop and analyze a photon?

[insane_alien]

well no. seeing as it has no rest mass it must always travel at the maximum possible speed or else it would undergo infinite acceleration till it got there anyway.

[ParanoiA]

well no. seeing as it has no rest mass it must always travel at the maximum possible speed or else it would undergo infinite acceleration till it got there anyway.

 

Yeah, I understand you're real convinced. I don't necessarily doubt you, really. But that's quite a prediction for a subject that science hasn't mastered - can't even be sure what there is to know, considering knowledge has a tendency to reveal further unknowns not even realized before. Who knows what kinds of physical laws we still aren't aware of yet?

 

I mean really, you can't "suppose" a condition, simply because you've never "seen" the condition?

 

Of course, this way the hell over my head. Maybe that's why I find it easy to question...

[Mr Skeptic]

It may be possible to observe from a photon's reference frame, but not with the currently discovered laws of physics. If you can replace relativity with a theory that does not break down at v=c, then you may be able to do that. However, if photons truly experience no time, than things from its point of view would look very ... weird.

[Infinitus]

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the conception of a photon being at rest not only be problematic with the zero Kelvin concept; but it would also completely contradict the Heinzberg uncertinty principle? Also in a book I am reading it mentions the concept that gravity and time are but two sides of the same coin, that could be problematic as well; however I haven't finished the book so Im not sure how accurate that is.

[Fred56]

The whole concept of 'rest mass' started when deBroglie (yes, him again), discovered he could calculate the electrons' mass at rest (to a lab. frame of reference). But the fact that no-one has actually seen one at rest, means it's what you call a projection (like most things we do).

But it's like absolute zero, type of thing, it's a concept (a useful one, but).

[Saryctos]

If energy = mass(over simplification) then if either side of that equation were hyopthozised to be 0(the OP), wouldn't that mean that whatever you were talking about was equal to 0 ie. non-existant? Therefore, a photon has a rest mass when it doesn't exist. Having 0 mass, and 0 energy, there are currently 0 ways of observing this.

[Fred56]

Maybe you should have a read of the other thread about mass and photons (information). I started this one off and it´s a tough game but I think the ref could award a try here and there (maybe even a penalty). He hasn´t blown his bloody whistle much but.

[Farsight]

What's all this?

 

A photon is an action. Literally. Talking about a photon at rest is talking about a motionless action. It doesn't make sense.

[YT2095]

A photon is an action. Literally.

 

FTW!???

 

No it is NOT!!!!

 

it Performs an action.

[thedarkshade]

What's all this?

 

A photon is an action. Literally. Talking about a photon at rest is talking about a motionless action. It doesn't make sense.

 

How smart is that???!!!

Then how come that action happens in no time? because photons are beyond the time barrier!

[foodchain]

How smart is that???!!!

Then how come that action happens in no time? because photons are beyond the time barrier!

 

But yet we can measure the action in time of light with units of time like a lot of other things;)

[Lakshya]

Look, suppose we are trying to know the mass of photon at rest. We don't know it's rest mass. So we put it in a thought experiment at rest and then examine the situation. And in my explanation, when we put it at rest, then we receive it's mass=0 and it can't be at rest what you gus are saying.

[Dr.CWho]

Yeah, good thing that it is impossible to reach 0 Kelvin.

 

0 deg.K is only unattainable in a radius that, such as ours, orbits the metagalactic center of the universe at c. (I imagine we'll talk/argue tachyons soon... ) Radii beyond that will find significant matter traveling at >c. This is naturally subjected to angular momentum and shearing, still there is an absolute fallback radius that is a product of the potential energy developed from gradients within the almighty, eternally infinite, cryodynamic VOID that exists beyond the radius of maximum velocity. ( c^7)

How do we get to there?

Let's say we substitute H (heat) for Q (irreversible) and P (pressure) for W (irreversible). In that the universe is viewed as the only truly closed system that exists. The remainder of heat measurements will be relative to the degree of closure between the internal gradients, compared to the potential of the external (void) gradients.

 

For these editors... & = infinity and it would need be assumed that in 1/&, for infinitesimality, the division line has the limit arrow toward zero.

h = plancks k

With that in mind -P& x -H& xt1/& = Eh

 

In essence, that's a particle from what we consider to be nothing, except nothing has enough potential to spurt a frame of material existence into reality in an infinitesimal moment. This type of process accounts for the cosmic background "noise" but describes a "big bang" that occurs thousands, if not millions, of times each second.

 

To the launch post, this says that you have it in reverse. The prime particle would be (what I dubbed) a tempon or tempotron, much smaller than the Higgs boson, which IMO equates to the graviton, collectively building the latter, then expanding to the photon, but "Let there be light," as we know it, is only characteristic of this part of the universe per this concept.

 

What we have is a burst of primary particles that affect one another yet are also affected by the forces of the void, primarily from 6 axial directions:X-, X+, Y-, Y+, Z-, Z+ and these forces will rapidly (within 1/&) lock all those particles into a frame that becomes time as we know it.

[Eric 5]

Hey guys, today I found a great thought experiment to prove that time can't exist without mass and motion.

.

 

 

 

If you are going to use thought experiments to prove something, you will only prove it in your own mind. Prove it the right way and do the experiment. But since you want to use thoughts to prove your point, then think about this. If you had a situation with no mass and no motion, you could still have this time period of no mass and no motion. This thought experiment has to take place somewhere so this somewhere would exist for a time period with no mass and no motion. Just a thought.

 

Hey guys, today I found a great thought experiment to prove that time can't exist without mass and motion. It can be found by proving photon's rest mass = 0. I don't know the actual derivation. So, I have made my own derivation (this is the one I made to prove photon's m = 0 to my friend). Let's start:

E=mc^2 (Rest energy equation)

E/c^2=m=0 (To prove)

We know that c^2 is a constant so if we want to prove m=0, we will have to prove E=0. Let's take another formula:

E=hv

So, we can prove it by this equation. As we are taking the photon to be at rest, there is no frequency at rest. It will have no frequency. So, we will get E=h*0=0. Putting it in the previous equation, we get m=0. That's how I proved it. But today I thought that in this way everything at rest will vanish from the universe.

Okay let's take this experiment. Suppose we stop every matter in the universe. Then everything will vanish according to the above proof. So, anybody outside the universe will never be able to sense that there's a thing like time.

And this state of stopping everything can be achieved by stopping time. Everything will come to rest and will vanish from the universe.

 

Hence, we can derive that mass and motion can only exist when time exists or conversely time only exists when mass and motion exist. If time exists and mass and motion don't exist, then we can never feel time. We get that feeling when anything comes into motion. So, both are true.

 

Thouhts please.

 

 

 

 

Your equation proves that if we stop everything in the universe then everything will vanish. Vanish to where? Where is all of this going?

 

You say that this can be accomplished by stopping time. How do you stop time? Are you saying that time is something that can be stopped? How long can this time thing be stopped? How fast is this time thing moving? Stopped in what way? Stopped vibrating? Stopped how?

 

I could go on and on about how absurd this idea is, but I think you get the point.

 

 

Use established facts to base your thought experiments on.

[Lakshya]

If you are going to use thought experiments to prove something, you will only prove it in your own mind. Prove it the right way and do the experiment. But since you want to use thoughts to prove your point, then think about this. If you had a situation with no mass and no motion, you could still have this time period of no mass and no motion. This thought experiment has to take place somewhere so this somewhere would exist for a time period with no mass and no motion. Just a thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your equation proves that if we stop everything in the universe then everything will vanish. Vanish to where? Where is all of this going?

 

You say that this can be accomplished by stopping time. How do you stop time? Are you saying that time is something that can be stopped? How long can this time thing be stopped? How fast is this time thing moving? Stopped in what way? Stopped vibrating? Stopped how?

 

I could go on and on about how absurd this idea is, but I think you get the point.

 

 

Use established facts to base your thought experiments on.

 

Look acc. to the above mentioned proofs everything should vanish. But in a stable atom there r still electrons and nucleons which don't becoem stable. So, we have to make them stable at any cost. I can think of 2 options from here. One, stop time or another reach 0 K. WE can't practically achieve these things. Bcoz the thing on which we r trying to achieve these things has soem resistence. It doesn't want to vanish as acc. to the above proof in that post. So maintain in the universe the resist and so we can't reach teh extremes. Third thing now came in my mnind is to reach c.

[Eric 5]

Where is everything in the universe going to vanish to? How do you stop time?