Evangelical Ignorance and the Effect on the Public

[mooeypoo]

I just finished watching "Hell House" - a documentary about the Evangelical play "Hell House":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_house

 

And I am still quite in shock. I wasn't raised in America, so the concept of widely-available "pushed-to-the-public" Evangelical stuff is new to me. This, however, seems to be worse than anything else I've seen.

 

They're more than ignorant, they're teaching their children that questions would get them into hell (and show it quite vividly, what hell is).

 

They're building a very vivid settings of what hell should be like, building scenes that are supposed to "represent" the lives of nonbelievers. Just a few "facts":

1. Date rape drug is going to be named the OFFICIAL date rape drug. People use it voluntarily before dates.

2. The occult is using the star of david (either that, or they didn't even check what a pentagram is).

3. The K-12 teacher introduces himself to his class. He writes his basic "set of rules": (a) Ask questions (b) don't ask dumb questions. He goes on to say that most people claim there is no such thing a 'dumb question', but if anyone starts asking too many questions, he will have to have a TALK with him.

 

They don't only do that to their own children, they seem to push it around the country for everyone to see. Their children, however, seem to swalllow this shit without question. Unsurprisingly.

 

I couldn't help wondering... Shouldn't this count as child abuse? Is this legal?? They're not just 'preaching', they are outright lying, scaring the brains off of children.. Psychological abuse by psychotic parents having nothing better to do than to scare the minds of their children, feeding them wholesale lies in the process?

 

What do you guys think..?

 

(NPR show about it here: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/aug/hellhouse/)

[Mr Skeptic]

3. The K-12 teacher introduces himself to his class. He writes his basic "set of rules": (a) Ask questions (b) don't ask dumb questions. He goes on to say that most people claim there is no such thing a 'dumb question', but if anyone starts asking too many questions, he will have to have a TALK with him.

 

There may be no such thing as a dumb question, but there certainly are dumb people. Of course, the teacher's job is to teach, even the dumb ones, but it can take down the rest of the class if one dumb person needs to keep asking questions that everyone else knows the answer to.

 

I couldn't help wondering... Shouldn't this count as child abuse? Is this legal?? They're not just 'preaching', they are outright lying, scaring the brains off of children.. Psychological abuse by psychotic parents having nothing better to do than to scare the minds of their children, feeding them wholesale lies in the process?

 

Maybe, but God help you if the religious folks disagree.

[mooeypoo]

There may be no such thing as a dumb question, but there certainly are dumb people. Of course, the teacher's job is to teach, even the dumb ones, but it can take down the rest of the class if one dumb person needs to keep asking questions that everyone else knows the answer to.

This teacher didn't refer to a student "harassing" the classroom with 'too many questions'. I will need to look up the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of "if you lead me in a rabbit chase you will have to have a TALK after class". It was quite obvious this guy threatens the kids against asking questions he can't quite answer - or questions that has to do with Christian faith. He also emphasized that the ENTIRE corricullum is about Christian faith. Their "SPANISH" textbooks are "SPANISH FOR CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS" for heaven's sakes. He explained that *everything they learn* comes in relation to hell/heaven and God. Questions about that are unacceptable.

 

Their scare tactics are horrific.

 

 

Maybe, but God help you if the religious folks disagree.

1. I'm not asking the religious folks, they obviously disagree with me. Btw -- only Evangelicals disagree.. many other denominations of Christian faith actually criticize the "Hell House" production very very hard.

2. I am not asking the religious folks, I'm asking you.. do *you* consider this child abuse.

 

I think that the level of scaring the brains off of those children if they even dare think of a *question* (I don't even begin suggesting what would happen if someone actually commits an action "against" faith) -- doubt is not something that is very much controllable always, and the mere fact some kid has doubt about something -- and his parents, teachers and entire society warns him that he will go for eternal damnation for not being sorry for THINKING is child abuse in my eyes.

 

It's damn dangerous, too.

 

~moo

[iNow]

Yes. It's abuse, but not just to the child. It's abusive to our culture and our ability to move forward as a society. We have very real problems and issues to overcome, and if we keep teaching our children half truths and falsehoods, untestable religious propositions, and other agenda driven topics, we are setting ourselves up as a species for far greater problems.

 

It makes me have a visceral sickness and frustration, but also disappointment and sadness to think about the mistakes we've made, and continue to make in this context.

 

 

It's damn dangerous, too.

Absolutely.

[Mr Skeptic]

This teacher didn't refer to a student "harassing" the classroom with 'too many questions'. I will need to look up the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of "if you lead me in a rabbit chase you will have to have a TALK after class". It was quite obvious this guy threatens the kids against asking questions he can't quite answer - or questions that has to do with Christian faith. He also emphasized that the ENTIRE corricullum is about Christian faith. Their "SPANISH" textbooks are "SPANISH FOR CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS" for heaven's sakes. He explained that *everything they learn* comes in relation to hell/heaven and God. Questions about that are unacceptable.

 

Then a case could be made that he is a bad teacher. Answering questions is part of the job description. Suppressing curiosity is the opposite of what teachers should do. He should be fired, and perhaps sued as well.

 

2. I am not asking the religious folks, I'm asking you.. do *you* consider this child abuse.

 

It could be argued that he is a good demonstration as to why people need critical thinking skills. They will be exposed to all manner of "facts" from media, advertisers, government, parents, peers, and who knows who else, and should learn that some sources are not trustworthy and that all sources occasionally make mistakes. However, children are not too notable for their critical thinking skills. If the child's parents are cooperating in this or complacent, and they don't manage to learn about critical thinking, it will be a disaster... So yes, it could be abuse.

[john5746]

Wow, it is strange how anything can be viewed as acceptable for kids if it is under the pretense of religion. Talk about not being able to distinguish reality from fairy tales!

 

This is child abuse, especially for girls.

[Pangloss]

Hell House is in my Netflix queue and I'm looking forward to seeing it. You realize, of course, that modern documentaries tend to be heavily biased? They're not journalism -- they're evangelism for a specific point of view.

 

The point here being that the vast majority of ultra-conservative Christian families don't indoctrinate their children to the point of ignorance about the world. I know many "true believers" who are perfectly capable and intelligent people. Scientists, engineers, inventors, you name it.

 

The real question here is not so much whether there are Christian madrasahs out there, but whether it is a growing trend or a relatively stable fringe effort. A documentary playing up the most extreme aspect of it is unlikely to answer (or even address) that question. (But I don't know that this one doesn't, since I haven't seen it yet.)

 

And there is a danger in overreacting to this problem. We already have a serious problem with monitoring and control over parenting in this country, not to mention constantly encouraging bad behavior and then pulling the rug out from under parents who try to do something about it (e.g. video games). We need to be careful that we don't back ourselves into ill-conceived legislation, or worse, governmental child rearing (which is what I'm convinced some idiots actually want).

 

But all of that aside, I think it's a good thing that we're paying more attention to how children are raised in this country. I particularly like the fact that this documentary will be seen by evangelical parents who might have been tempted to go this route.

 

I'm not a parent, but I know quite a few of them and I've noticed how they have all asked themselves something that I've come to call "The Question". In a nutshell, if you're a new parent and you've never really asked yourself if you believe in god, having children seems to force you to face the subject square-on. You know that going to church if you don't believe is a hypocritical act. But you may fear that not taking your children to church may rob them of some critical part of their childhood -- a parent's worst nightmare!

 

So it should come as no surprise that some parents go to this kind of extreme. Pre-kid it's all booze and cursing. Post-kid it's hands waving in the air and face knotted in extreme fervor. Human behavior -- gotta love it.

[john5746]

Hell House is in my Netflix queue and I'm looking forward to seeing it. You realize, of course, that modern documentaries tend to be heavily biased? They're not journalism -- they're evangelism for a specific point of view.

 

The point here being that the vast majority of ultra-conservative Christian families don't indoctrinate their children to the point of ignorance about the world. I know many "true believers" who are perfectly capable and intelligent people. Scientists, engineers, inventors, you name it.

 

Of course, I don't think anyone was implying that this is any majority of any group. In fact, I was going to bring up that many of the fastest growing churches are watered down, liberal, "only the good stuff" christianity. This could be seen as a good thing, but is it really honest? Then again, with all the contradictions, who knows what is right?

[mooeypoo]

Wow, it is strange how anything can be viewed as acceptable for kids if it is under the pretense of religion. Talk about not being able to distinguish reality from fairy tales!

 

This is child abuse, especially for girls.

I think it's very bad for boys too, but yes, they're terrible.

 

Which gets me wondering, btw -- how is this not PG rated (at the very least!)? Aren't there laws against that? You show HALF the things in a TV show at night and you have to put a disclaimer on it... weird.

 

Hell House is in my Netflix queue and I'm looking forward to seeing it. You realize, of course, that modern documentaries tend to be heavily biased? They're not journalism -- they're evangelism for a specific point of view.

Yes, of course I realise that.. but watch it. There is no commentary. The documentary can be taken either way, actually. And people in the church show it around as "lookie here this is what we do, yay!".

 

I am just putting my OWN interpretation on it. But yes, do watch it (I actually watched it on Netflix-Online-Movie so I didn't waste a shipment on it..)

 

 

I think the bigger question here is -- What *can* we do about this? As rational people who care about society and reducing ignorance.. what can we do? Legally.. socially... this is really frustrating.

 

~moo

[ParanoiA]

I think the bigger question here is -- What *can* we do about this? As rational people who care about society and reducing ignorance.. what can we do? Legally.. socially... this is really frustrating.

 

Yes, what can we do about people who exaggerate what "abuse" is and use it to promote ignorance in legislation? As rational people who care about society and reducing ignorance, what can we do to keep your agenda out of my life? You're right it is really frustrating to watch you throw a fit over an evangelical horror show while you make NO mention of violence or horror in general - just the evangelical kind. I guess if you throw god in the mix, suddenly it's abuse?

 

I just watched 28 Weeks Later last night - kick ass movie by the way - and it was far more horrifying and realistic, not to mention prophetic in a way, than anything I've seen in a christian haunted house - yes we had them in Tulsa when GUTS church did it - it was cool also.

[Severian]

I was somewhat bemused by a paragraph in the article:

 

"The film also depicts the personal lives of some of the people behind Hell House, such as the father of four whose wife has run off with a man she met over the Internet (a similar situation is played out in Hell House)."

 

Is this somehow passing judgement on this father? Is the article implying that one cannot/shouldnot be a Christian if your wife runs off with another man?

 

I suppose the important question is, are the children who go to the 'Hell House' forced to go?

[gcol]

I suppose the important question is, are the children who go to the 'Hell House' forced to go?

 

And I suppose the obvious answer to that is if you forcefeed young minds a diet of fundy claptrap as part of their normal homelife, what choice do they have.

 

Yes, child abuse definitely. The sort of vile indoctrination that, at its worst, could lead to another Jamestown massacre?

 

With friends like these, mainstream religion needs no enemies.

 

As for the guy's wife, perhaps she sensibly voted with her feet and arse.

[ParanoiA]

What about the abuse of over-protection? What about the abuse of lack of diversity in culture and lifestyle, and therefore closed minded judgement?

 

What is really abusive about it? Why is it that children are so "fragile" they should be spared the benefit of fear? Isn't that why you don't put your hand on hot coals?

 

And how about when global warming gets so bad we're looking at becoming toast inside of a few decades - are you still going to claim abuse when they step up the fear campaign?

 

The only abuse I see here is the abuse of intolerance.

[iNow]

The only abuse I see here is the abuse of intolerance.

And there are certain things which absolutely should not be tolerated in an advanced civilization.

[ParanoiA]

And there are certain things which absolutely should not be tolerated in an advanced civilization.

 

Yeah, like forcing others to live up to some utopian puke. Children need adversity, fear, pain, injustice, and etc. These are useful concepts. Violence is still necessary to survive.

[gcol]

Yes, in an uncivilised society. Are not most of us hoping and trying for something better? Perhaps your scenario is a sort of trial by fire we have to endure on the way. Don't buy into it, myself.

[YT2095]

ever get the feeling they`re just making this crap up as they go along???

 

God gave us the minds and ability to Question stuff!

 

isn`t their teaching just a mega slap in the face to God, Hell I`d send em there just for being Stoopid!

 

(some pun intended)

[ParanoiA]

Yes, in an uncivilised society. Are not most of us hoping and trying for something better? Perhaps your scenario is a sort of trial by fire we have to endure on the way. Don't buy into it, myself.

 

Isn't balance better? Isn't that the point we always reach when we go extreme in one direction, then extreme in the other, only to find that the middle compliments both?

 

Why would you advocate overprotection of children to the point they lose their capacity for violence? Wouldn't that make them weaker, unable to combat or reason with aggression from some external threat?

 

We all should hope and try for something better. That doesn't mean losing our heads altogether to be a "civilized" race - ripe and ready for enslavement. I didn't say violence is really cool and we should all dig it - I said violence is still necessary for survival. And it is.

 

Careful you don't evolve faster than your biology.

[gcol]

There is a catch 22 situation here. The early adopters of non-violence and no aggression are at the mercy of the redneck numbskulls. Both sides must lower their weapons very slowly. The first to blink has had it.

 

"Make love not war" did not work in the long run, the believers had to grow up and earn a living in a harsh, realistic, and material world.

 

The christian "turn the other cheek" philosophy has my admiration, but I would wear some serious head protection before I did it.

 

Your approach has practical and pragmatic merit, but is not a worthy long term aim, surely.

[Reaper]

Yeah, like forcing others to live up to some utopian puke. Children need adversity, fear, pain, injustice, and etc. These are useful concepts. Violence is still necessary to survive.

 

In most cases, this is something that is usually forced on other people.

 

And are you so sure that any of this is necessary for our survival? There are plenty of people who usually don't make it, and society in general typically falls apart under prolonged exposure to this as far as I understand.

[CDarwin]

Why would you advocate overprotection of children to the point they lose their capacity for violence? Wouldn't that make them weaker, unable to combat or reason with aggression from some external threat?

 

We all should hope and try for something better. That doesn't mean losing our heads altogether to be a "civilized" race - ripe and ready for enslavement. I didn't say violence is really cool and we should all dig it - I said violence is still necessary for survival. And it is.

 

I don't think that the 'violence' of Hell Houses is the issue here. I think the fear that kids who don't know better are being traumatized in ways that could seriously affect their future psychological health by having their mortal souls threatened in order to indoctrinate them is what might make some think this child abuse. I'm not absolutely sure that that's what's going on here; I don't think any of us can be. But I certainly think this warrants investigation.

[Pangloss]

Hypocrisy check and open question for everyone:

 

What is the difference between Hell House indoctrinating children into a culture of religious ferver, and a video game indoctrinating children into a culture of gun violence?

[ParanoiA]

Hypocrisy check and open question for everyone:

 

What is the difference between Hell House indoctrinating children into a culture of religious ferver, and a video game indoctrinating children into a culture of gun violence?

 

Duh...video game violence doesn't promote a fairy tale that preaches exclusivity and promises of heaven, but rather promotes a real life alternative for self indulgent irreverence for human kind and promises murder, rape, self destruction, societal devolution.

 

Obviously Hell House is the clear danger here...

[Pangloss]

I know you're being sarcastic, but I fully expect that to be the exact argument. Video games of all kinds are perfectly safe for all children regardless of age, but religious indoctrination of any kind (just opening a Bible in their vicinity) constitutes child abuse. I know that's not the position that most reasonable people here will take, but it is a position that almost everyone here will accept -- i.e. tolerate without objection.

 

Strange Man at Video Store: "Here kid this game rocks, just don't tell mommy."

Mommy: "Yeah whatever."

Strange Man with Bible Outside Video Store: "Here kid this book rocks, and be sure and tell mommy."

Mommy: "OMFG GET AWAY YOU CREEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

We sure have some odd priorities.

[iNow]

While I appreciate your point about selective tolerance and nontolerance, I don't personally feel that sources of entertainment and sources of spirituality hold the same weight when it comes to impact on the child and impact on society. IMO, it's not a valid comparison for the discussion at hand, and the comparison only holds when discussing tolerance itself.