Gavroche Posted February 27, 2004 Posted February 27, 2004 The Founders of the US wrote in the Constitution their goals as being: "To form a more perfect Union" "To establish justice" "To insure domestic tranquility" "To provide for the common defense" "To promote the general welfare" "To secure the blessings of liberty" Are these things being done? Establish justice? How well is that done, when innocent men are convicted and guilty men let free? Common defense? Invading other countries and making foreigners hate us and promise to make America into a "sea of fire" sure seems like a good way to do that, don't you think? Promote the general welfare? There are millions of Americans without homes, jobs, money, or educations. Sure, some help is going to them, but definately not enough. To insure domestic tranquility? This one is the kicker. Dividing our country over insane issues sure seems like a good way to have domestic tranquility, doesn't it? Aside from those all, does the will of the people truly matter anymore? We vote people into office, and then they make decisions that are harmful to us, and for their own interests. The American government is cracking. It doesn't go by the ideals it was set up upon, and doesn't reflect the desire of the people.
JaKiri Posted February 27, 2004 Posted February 27, 2004 That's not really about effectiveness, you're talking about obeying the ideals of the founding fathers. Which it isn't really doing, no.
Gavroche Posted February 27, 2004 Author Posted February 27, 2004 No, JaKiri. I mean effectiveness as in "is it carrying out the will of the people and the intent of it's founders?"
Gavroche Posted February 27, 2004 Author Posted February 27, 2004 hah. no. Ever read the US Constitution, monkey?
JaKiri Posted February 27, 2004 Posted February 27, 2004 Gavroche said in post # :hah. no. Ever read the US Constitution, monkey? The US constitution is a really liberal document. It's superb. Oh, and 'the will of the people' is pretty irrelevent, given that for all intents and purposes, people believe what they're told to.
atinymonkey Posted February 27, 2004 Posted February 27, 2004 Gavroche said in post # :hah. no. Ever read the US Constitution, monkey? Oooh, feisty.
Gavroche Posted February 27, 2004 Author Posted February 27, 2004 True. A lot of people don't have their own brains and don't think for themselves.
-Demosthenes- Posted February 28, 2004 Posted February 28, 2004 We do the best we can. It's a lot better then it used to be. The world isn't perfect, you aren't, no one is, why should the goverment have to be? No question it's the best goverment in the world though. We have to invade some countries, there are countries with corupt leaders and they have to be stopped. Remember what happened when we didn't get involved at the first sign of trouble? Hitler is one example. Millions died, millions were scared for life, all because of him, all becasue we didn't get involved. But some people are selfish and they want to just stay where we are and not help poeple. It is our moral obligation to help these people. It's no great special thing that people argue about issues. Before goverments people had arguments. Besides it the only way we can decide what we are going to do. Maybe if we had a dictatorship and no freedom we could do what you want, but that will never happen. All you arguements in post #1 conflict. Establish justice? How well is that done, when innocent men are convicted and guilty men let free? These two clearly conflict. How could we not argue about issues and then still decide? Only if everyone always agreed. Maybe in your on little world. Do you think they do that on purpose? Of course on people trying their best. To insure domestic tranquility? This one is the kicker. Dividing our country over insane issues sure seems like a good way to have domestic tranquility, doesn't it? Aside from those all, does the will of the people truly matter anymore? We vote people into office, and then they make decisions that are harmful to us, and for their own interests. The American government is cracking. It doesn't go by the ideals it was set up upon, and doesn't reflect the desire of the people. Here's another contradiction. How can we decide what to do without arguing a little? Maybe if everyone agreed or maybe just in your little world where everything works out perfectly. But this is the real world now, we all grown up and things can't work perfectly.
-Demosthenes- Posted February 28, 2004 Posted February 28, 2004 That's becasue Hitler is the seen as an ultimate evil, if you can get someone to think that what they want to do is what Hitler would do, then they won't want to do it as much. If I understand the law completely
YT2095 Posted February 29, 2004 Posted February 29, 2004 -Demosthenes- said in post # : Maybe in your on little world. in your little world where everything works out perfectly. don`t get too fond of those words chum! there`s absolutely NO NEED to patronise anyone, least of all coming from you!
atinymonkey Posted February 29, 2004 Posted February 29, 2004 This thread just goes back to the old comparison of the United States and the Roman empire. The basic values that become elastic over time, and the ethos gets lost somewhere along with the ammendments.
atinymonkey Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 It's less funny if you have to explain it:- http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html
-Demosthenes- Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 What the heck did that mean? I read that before and I thought I was right the first time.
atinymonkey Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Why, old chap, it means the bounders can ignore your witticisms on the grounds that you mentioned the Hun. What what, eh? Poor show, old bean. Not keeping your end up, letting Jonnie Foreigner in on our elucidating discussion. Damn poor show.
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Speak for yourself. The accent looks bad. Shouldn't Godwin's law be part of Murphy's law?
Sayonara Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Why would it be part of Murphy's Law? They're completely different.
JaKiri Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :Speak for yourself. The accent looks bad. Shouldn't Godwin's law be part of Murphy's law? Only if Murphy's Law is part of Jude Law.
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