suicide (in humans) - ethological explination?

[Linnyk]

Hi everyone!

 

I have a question; is there an ethological explination for suicide? I was primarily thinking of suicide in humans, but other animals are of interest as well (though I don't think any other animals actually comit suicide?)...

 

In my human ethology course literature ("Human evolutionary psychology") I tried to look up "suicide" in the index, but it seems the book doesn't deal with the subject at all.

 

So, how does one deal with such things as suicide (which certainly isn't uncommon) in the field of human ethology? Comitting suicide at an early age certainly doesn't maximize an individual's fitness...

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter!

/Linda

[CDarwin]

I don't think there is a good EP explanation for suicide. It's just a little quirk of our idiosyncratic, culturally mediated phyche's; a side-effect of a self-awareness evolved for other reasons. I'm not a huge fan of EP and sociobiology, though. They're reductionist.

[TheRoseElephant]

I used to think about this all the time from an evolutionary standpoint, and came up with the idea that it all has to do with looking out for the species as a whole. If an organism with thick ties to a social structure views itself as weak, it may be an evolutionary advantage to leave the pack so as not to pass on weak traits or become a burden. However, this would heavily conflict with the biological urge to pass on our genes. It might also be explained by mental instability, which can drive people to develop all kinds of behaviors that are straight out impractical for survival.

Anybody able to elaborate?

[J.C.MacSwell]

I used to think about this all the time from an evolutionary standpoint, and came up with the idea that it all has to do with looking out for the species as a whole. If an organism with thick ties to a social structure views itself as weak, it may be an evolutionary advantage to leave the pack so as not to pass on weak traits or become a burden. However, this would heavily conflict with the biological urge to pass on our genes. It might also be explained by mental instability, which can drive people to develop all kinds of behaviors that are straight out impractical for survival.

Anybody able to elaborate?

I had similar thoughts. Not so much just "species as a whole" (though it could be as well, and perhaps extend even further) but more so those close to you and your community which would likely, evolutionary/statistically speaking, share similar genes compared to "the competition". This is assuming the "suicide gene", or genetic make up, is at least in part positive and not a defect.

 

Not exactly the same, but risking or sacrificing one's life might be in part influenced by the same genes…or even making sacrifices such as adoption or other philanthropy.

 

This could be totally wrong and of course fortunately we don't need genetics as motives for all our actions. (though it may help if there is good alignment)

Edited November 3, 2015 by J.C.MacSwell

[Delta1212]

On the other hand, sometimes things just break.

[geordief]

Poor Robin Williams seemed to have been dealt a terrible hand.

 

Suicide perhaps seems more comprehensible in his case.

 

His life seems to have been disintegrating according to the latest report.

[Der_Neugierige]

Its very understandable if you have a severe disease like cancer or alzheimer etc

 

It's very understandable if you let's say you have debts of big amount and you have to live the rest of your life in misery without any hope.

 

 

Or in my case when people call me fag, even my father call me faggot behind my back. Or when people say oh he is gay. That hurts my feeling.

 

I can say there is VERY HIGH risk for doing suicide the next 10 to 20 years. There is a very deep un satisfaied wish about being heterosexual, having familiy with children and having a hetero man life.

 

I CAN CHOSE if I want to end this life or not that's my right! It's EXTREMLY exhausting and depressing when I permanently get to hear insulting words and additionally I have to life as homosexual I suffering under.

 

A person does wantto commit suicide when the brain realizes that there is no solution for a problem, that has an very negative influence on someones lifequality and general comfort.

 

A person commits suicide if there huge difference between a extrem desire and reality.

 

Lets say a man loves another woman and this love break up.The mssing of serotonin and dopamin can be so extrem, that this man commits suicide.

 

A human has drives like eating, drinking or sex. And also the need to have social bonding and protection(flat or house). If those drives are satisfied and disires of a person are satisfied, there is a good balance of neurobiological system, then such a person won't commit suicide.

 

I can say to you IT very EXHAUSTING to live a shit life.

 

 

Conclusion

 

A person commits suicide when neurobiological system is TOTALLY out of balance.

 

 

 

My brain would react E X T R E M L Y if someone would come to me and say So Sir science has done research on human sexual orientation and is now able to manipulate and fix your sexuality.

 

I would react like someone had injected a great amount of heroine into my body.

 

 

This wishes are so strong that I would become scientost to make this true. DID YOU GET THAT?

 

My brain permanently has did vision of how I will get SOMEHOW in the labor and DID YOU GET THAT?

The big problem is most people psychology can fix peoples depression. That wrong, because human wishes and drives have deeper neurobiological and inborn causes.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Der_Neugierige

[MonDie]

From a gene view, it's adaptive to benefit the group when one can do so at a small enough cost to themself. Perhaps suicide fit the bill when one's circumstances were dire enough.

Perhaps some research on suicidal ideation can give us some idea of how deeply entrenched this behavior is. Do other animals do it?

Edited November 8, 2015 by MonDie

[TheRoseElephant]

True. After looking at a graph having to do with race, ethnicity, gender, and age, it's all kind of all over the place with the expected jumps around the teen years, and considering that's when you first start to break off and form realities of your own and understand that the reality where you live is different, that difference could very likely lead to the need to a new philosophy: my reality, or no reality. I wonder if there are any studies on animals committing suicide? I know I read something once about old, feeble wolves leaving their pack so as not to slow them down.

Maybe these two things connect to lead to the need for suicide. The fact that your reality will never be everyone's reality leads to a feeling of uselessness to the world because you can't think like them, and that feeling of uselessness combined with your desperation of realty-crisis is what makes it possible. Your desperation is your motivation and your hopelessness is your instinct-override.

This is all just a big brainstorm, of course.

 

Oh, and sorry, Der Neugierige. I was lucky enough to be raised into a household liberal enough to not care, even if "the-f-word" wasn't out of the question as long as it wasn't in reference to me being gay.

 

I find the best remedy is to distance yourself- you are the only one who can make your life complete, to complete your own reality.

Especially if any of this is true, pack mentality can be... extremely debilitating.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Its very understandable if you have a severe disease like cancer or alzheimer etc

 

It's very understandable if you let's say you have debts of big amount and you have to live the rest of your life in misery without any hope.

 

 

Or in my case when people call me fag, even my father call me faggot behind my back. Or when people say oh he is gay. That hurts my feeling.

 

I can say there is VERY HIGH risk for doing suicide the next 10 to 20 years. There is a very deep un satisfaied wish about being heterosexual, having familiy with children and having a hetero man life.

 

I CAN CHOSE if I want to end this life or not that's my right! It's EXTREMLY exhausting and depressing when I permanently get to hear insulting words and additionally I have to life as homosexual I suffering under.

 

A person does wantto commit suicide when the brain realizes that there is no solution for a problem, that has an very negative influence on someones lifequality and general comfort.

 

A person commits suicide if there huge difference between a extrem desire and reality.

 

Lets say a man loves another woman and this love break up.The mssing of serotonin and dopamin can be so extrem, that this man commits suicide.

 

A human has drives like eating, drinking or sex. And also the need to have social bonding and protection(flat or house). If those drives are satisfied and disires of a person are satisfied, there is a good balance of neurobiological system, then such a person won't commit suicide.

 

I can say to you IT very EXHAUSTING to live a shit life.

 

 

Conclusion

 

A person commits suicide when neurobiological system is TOTALLY out of balance.

 

 

 

My brain would react E X T R E M L Y if someone would come to me and say So Sir science has done research on human sexual orientation and is now able to manipulate and fix your sexuality.

 

I would react like someone had injected a great amount of heroine into my body.

 

 

This wishes are so strong that I would become scientost to make this true. DID YOU GET THAT?

 

My brain permanently has did vision of how I will get SOMEHOW in the labor and DID YOU GET THAT?

The big problem is most people psychology can fix peoples depression. That wrong, because human wishes and drives have deeper neurobiological and inborn causes.

I think it is important to get yourself in a situation where you have positive people and positive influences around you…unfortunately this is much easier said than done depending on age means and circumstances.

[Der_Neugierige]

True. After looking at a graph having to do with race, ethnicity, gender, and age, it's all kind of all over the place with the expected jumps around the teen years, and considering that's when you first start to break off and form realities of your own and understand that the reality where you live is different, that difference could very likely lead to the need to a new philosophy: my reality, or no reality. I wonder if there are any studies on animals committing suicide? I know I read something once about old, feeble wolves leaving their pack so as not to slow them down.

Maybe these two things connect to lead to the need for suicide. The fact that your reality will never be everyone's reality leads to a feeling of uselessness to the world because you can't think like them, and that feeling of uselessness combined with your desperation of realty-crisis is what makes it possible. Your desperation is your motivation and your hopelessness is your instinct-override.

 

This is all just a big brainstorm, of course.

 

Oh, and sorry, Der Neugierige. I was lucky enough to be raised into a household liberal enough to not care, even if "the-f-word" wasn't out of the question as long as it wasn't in reference to me being gay.

 

I find the best remedy is to distance yourself- you are the only one who can make your life complete, to complete your own reality.

Especially if any of this is true, pack mentality can be... extremely debilitating.

 

Well Switzerland and Westeurope is generelly more liberal than the USA is. Ok there is less hate against homosexuals compared to the USA, but behind closed doors and in a subtile way people dislike homosexuality.

 

Homosexuality remains a biochemical error with high prevelance. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'Nature'. Of course we can say every biological creature is a hazardous biochemical machine.

 

 

Homosexuality is not an error per se, but in a serious scientific contex it is a system failure.

[MonDie]

Well Switzerland and Westeurope is generelly more liberal than the USA is. Ok there is less hate against homosexuals compared to the USA, but behind closed doors and in a subtile way people dislike homosexuality.

 

Homosexuality remains a biochemical error with high prevelance. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'Nature'. Of course we can say every biological creature is a hazardous biochemical machine.

 

 

Homosexuality is not an error per se, but in a serious scientific contex it is a system failure.

 

We're all system failures because we continue prioritizing ourselves and our own reproduction while the entire group, nay, entire species, and probably some higher-order clades too, are about to *poof* into nonexistence thanks to the failure of us to cooperate. What does this have to do with suicide?

[Delta1212]

Well Switzerland and Westeurope is generelly more liberal than the USA is. Ok there is less hate against homosexuals compared to the USA, but behind closed doors and in a subtile way people dislike homosexuality.

 

Homosexuality remains a biochemical error with high prevelance. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'Nature'. Of course we can say every biological creature is a hazardous biochemical machine.

 

 

Homosexuality is not an error per se, but in a serious scientific contex it is a system failure.

For a system to fail, it needs a goal.

 

There are no inherent goals in nature, just those we impose with our own interpretations of what things are "supposed" to be like.