Workfare does not work

[bascule]

Excuse the Le Tigre inspired thread title...

 

A man recently called Rudy Giuliani on the failures of his "workfare" program... and called him literally, on a radio program. Under the program his access to food stamps and medicare had been cut off. Giuliani laughed him off and questioned his mental health:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMzPvSpJ1Z8

 

After 27 years of being a working member of society, he developed Parkinsons, which rendered him wheelchair bound and incapable of performing his job.

 

This is sickening. To quote Le Tigre again:

 

F*ck Giuliani. He's such a f*cking jerk...

[ecoli]

well, the point is to cut off food stamps and medicare... not to replace it with nothing. I don't believe that this guy can't work tho. Maybe cities interested in workfare programs should also integrate it into job placement programs. That seems reasonable to me.

[bascule]

I don't believe that this guy can't work tho.

 

Are you kidding? He can't even hold his head straight. What kind of job is he going to do?

[Pangloss]

The caller directly, deliberately insulted him. What, Guiliani was supposed to read his mind and recognize the guy had Parkinsons and then eat crow for something he didn't have anything to do with?

 

This is almost as stupid as the idiocy over holding McCain accountable for one of his supports asking how they were going to "beat the b*tch".

[ecoli]

Are you kidding? He can't even hold his head straight. What kind of job is he going to do?

telemarketing... for an hour or so a day? A little easy work to supplement an entitlement. Why is this an unreasonable request?

[Pangloss]

telemarketing... for an hour or so a day? A little easy work to supplement an entitlement. Why is this an unreasonable request?

 

Oh dear... given the video, that's actually quite an ironic and amusing reply!

[ecoli]

Oh dear... given the video, that's actually quite an ironic and amusing reply!

 

another delicious Rudy vid, btw. http://toocoolvideos.blogspot.com/2007/11/rudy-giuliani-youre-all-bunch-of-morons.html

[bascule]

The caller directly, deliberately insulted him.

 

How, by calling him a criminal?

 

What, Guiliani was supposed to read his mind and recognize the guy had Parkinsons and then eat crow for something he didn't have anything to do with?

 

Maybe he shouldn't respond by questioning the guy's mental health.

[ecoli]

Maybe he shouldn't respond by questioning the guy's mental health.

Rudy's overblown response is not uncharacteristic of him. Watch the video I posted above. Instead of plainly countering the mild charges of corruption, he starts name calling and disrespecting. I guess it's easier to make your opponents look mentally unstable and dangerous than admit your opponents are correct about you.

 

Of course, he comes off looking guilty anyway. What does he have to hide that he uses such blatant ad homs against his own constituents.

[Realitycheck]

telemarketing... for an hour or so a day? A little easy work to supplement an entitlement. Why is this an unreasonable request?

I'm pretty sure that if you are considering federal aid, it's kind of all or none. If you work, you cannot get aid. Correction. You were right. For federal disability, they rate you as being n% disabled, in which they probably give you a pro-rated check. Still not completely sure though.

 

Of course, he comes off looking guilty anyway. What does he have to hide that he uses such blatant ad homs against his own constituents.

He really sounds like a tough-talking New Yorker more than anything. He probably should have gotten some coaching on that. I wouldn't be surprised if he is an alcoholic.

[Pangloss]

I'll go along with what ecoli said above. There's a certain Yankee attitude that I've always found disgusting and arrogant. It's incredibly ironic that New York is a center of liberalism, given that they often embrace and embody the very attitudes that the world hates most about Americans. They run around exclaiming "Don't blame us! WE're not the BAD Americans -- it's those red-staters who just won't vote the right, I mean left, way!!!!!" Then they proceed to act in the dumbest and least responsible ways imaginable towards one another. Giuliani sometimes employs this New York attitude, yes.

 

But the caller's behavior was bad, and he got exactly the reaction he asked for. The fact that he's disabled and has Parkinsons is irrelevent. Nobody gets a free pass in the behavior department, no matter how many liberals wish it to be so.

 

This item, this video that someone actually SPENT TIME on, is about ideology, falsely premised to look like a discussion about proper human behavior. This is a perfect example of the kind of nonsense that's polluting the electoral atmosphere and contributing to the division of this nation. It should be stopped and ridiculed and ostracized, not perpetuated.

[Sisyphus]

There's a certain Yankee attitude that I've always found disgusting and arrogant. It's incredibly ironic that New York is a center of liberalism, given that they often embrace and embody the very attitudes that the world hates most about Americans. They run around exclaiming "Don't blame us! WE're not the BAD Americans -- it's those red-staters who just won't vote the right, I mean left, way!!!!!" Then they proceed to act in the dumbest and least responsible ways imaginable towards one another.

 

What ways might those be?

[ecoli]

I'm pretty sure that if you are considering federal aid, it's kind of all or none. If you work, you cannot get aid. Correction. You were right. For federal disability, they rate you as being n% disabled, in which they probably give you a pro-rated check. Still not completely sure though.

 

Oh, I'm not sure how current workfare programs actually work. I think they could be more effective if they weren't just all or none.

[Pangloss]

What ways might those be?

Being rude to one another in public, for example. New York ranked third in this study on road rage in 2006. Examples of "New York City Behavior" can be found in every aspect of entertainment, from the phrase "Hey I'm walkin' here!" to practically any movie or TV show set in the tri-state area, from "Taxi Driver" to "The Sopranos".

 

I'm not saying that stereotype embodies every resident of the Northeast, I'm just saying that there's a certain mode of preferred behavior common to some inhabitants of that region that is deliberately invasive, obtuse, aggressive and stubborn. Some people may well find it compelling behavior, and obviously it must work for some people or they wouldn't do it, but my point is that behavior has consequences, and if this foolish shut-in wants to call a radio station and blast a politician in person, he should be prepared to pay the consequences for that action, which in this case means being deemed a pointlessly aggressive idiot by more level-headed, less ideologically-motivated people.

 

And if Rudy Giuliani wants to embrace that behavior to garner a few votes, then he shouldn't be too surprised if it costs him a few elsewhere.

[ecoli]

He really sounds like a tough-talking New Yorker more than anything. He probably should have gotten some coaching on that. I wouldn't be surprised if he is an alcoholic.

And look who he's acting tough too... it's poor and disabled people, people who disagree with his policy and are directly affected, economically by his policies.

"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." - Sirius black (from Harry potter)

 

People who he sees as inferior to himself, the poor and downtrodden, he treats with disrespect... as long as the mainstream media's cameras aren't on.

[bascule]

telemarketing... for an hour or so a day? A little easy work to supplement an entitlement. Why is this an unreasonable request?

 

Well, let me put it this way: I'm a contributing member of society now. If I worked for 27 years then developed Parkinsons to the point I couldn't hold my head straight, I'd want food stamps and medicare. I certainly wouldn't want to work. I'd spend most of my time trying to keep my quality of live above abominally suicidal.

 

Rudy's overblown response is not uncharacteristic of him. Watch the video I posted above. Instead of plainly countering the mild charges of corruption, he starts name calling and disrespecting. I guess it's easier to make your opponents look mentally unstable and dangerous than admit your opponents are correct about you.

 

Of course, he comes off looking guilty anyway. What does he have to hide that he uses such blatant ad homs against his own constituents.

 

Nice

 

This item, this video that someone actually SPENT TIME on, is about ideology, falsely premised to look like a discussion about proper human behavior. This is a perfect example of the kind of nonsense that's polluting the electoral atmosphere and contributing to the division of this nation. It should be stopped and ridiculed and ostracized, not perpetuated.

 

You'll certainly disagree, but I think this guy is a great example of the kind of people who do need food stamps and medicare... regardless of what you think about his attitude.

 

Rudy's naive anti-"entitlement" attitude belies those who are actually in need of society's help. And I'm still not sure what the caller said so offensive...

 

"I'm sick, and you cut off my food stamps and medicare" "LOLZ I think you need a shrink"

[CDarwin]

I tend to side with Bascule on this one. Could a person with Parkinson's conceivably hold down a job? Sure. But I don't think in the richest country on earth he or she should have to in order to survive (it's not like living off welfare and Medicare is easy street without any independent income).

 

You're expecting a lot more out of that person when you tell them "go get a job" than you are with an able bodied person when you tell them to "go get a job."

[Pangloss]

You'll certainly disagree, but I think this guy is a great example of the kind of people who do need food stamps and medicare... regardless of what you think about his attitude.

 

What have I said in this thread, or anywhere else, that suggests to you that I would disagree with that? If you don't want to talk about the video anymore, fine, but please don't put words in my mouth.

[ecoli]

I tend to side with Bascule on this one. Could a person with Parkinson's conceivably hold down a job? Sure. But I don't think in the richest country on earth he or she should have to in order to survive (it's not like living off welfare and Medicare is easy street without any independent income).

Not in order to survive, no, but to decrease the tax stress from the general public. I think state or city associated welfare programs are necessary, if we live in a society that wants to take care of our disabled and disenfranchised. And, yes, there are people that are, beyond a doubt, without the means to provide income for themselves.

 

However, the title of this thread is 'workfare doesn't work.' Well, maybe the way Guiliani is running it, it doesn't work, but why does it have to be all or nothing?

 

Surely there are plenty of happy mediums... And you know what, the guy in the video even says that he doesn't really like accepting 'handouts.' For many people accepting them, it can be humiliating. Why not defray the costs and decrease the humiliation? I haven't heard a good argument against it.

 

You're expecting a lot more out of that person when you tell them "go get a job" than you are with an able bodied person when you tell them to "go get a job."

yeah, but don't people who collect unemployment only have to show that they're 'looking for a job' to collect? Wouldn't make more sense to have a job placement program or something? Hell, the government could even contract it out to a private company... it would probably be easy to do over the internet.

I'm not saying, go and find a job or your own your own. I'm arguing for, well help you find work to make these entitlement programs less expensive.

[Sisyphus]

Being rude to one another in public, for example. New York ranked third in this study on road rage in 2006. Examples of "New York City Behavior" can be found in every aspect of entertainment, from the phrase "Hey I'm walkin' here!" to practically any movie or TV show set in the tri-state area, from "Taxi Driver" to "The Sopranos".

 

And yet we have a far lower crime rate than just about any other big city in the United States. "New York City Behavior" works very well for New York City. It's tough and alert, but also the most "live and let live" attitude you'll find anywhere, which is really the only way you can stay sane in a place as dense, fast-paced, unpredictable, and diverse (in every sense) as New York. But I guess it's our role to be misunderstood and judged from afar by Floridians and such who like to simultaneously complain about how we look down on them. Jerk.

[Pangloss]

ROFL! Well that reasoning might actually work if it weren't for the fact that most of my neighbors used to be yours!

 

"My parents just moved down to Florida. They didn't want to, but, you know, they turned 65 and that's the law." -- Jerry Seinfeld

[bascule]

What have I said in this thread, or anywhere else, that suggests to you that I would disagree with that? If you don't want to talk about the video anymore, fine, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

Well, that was the point of the thread...

 

Do you think workfare works or not?

[Pangloss]

No, the point of the thread was to present a deceptive basis for accusing him of insentitivity towards the disabled.

 

In answer to your question, I have no idea, but I don't have a problem with THAT GUY being on some aspect of welfare, including foot stamps.

[john5746]

But I guess it's our role to be misunderstood and judged from afar by Floridians and such who like to simultaneously complain about how we look down on them. Jerk.

 

Actually, as many NY's move down south and start complaining, then we see it first hand, up close in our own neighborhoods. As usual, the loudest of the bunch gets all the attention. I actually get along better with the NY's than many Nascar fans. What amazes me is how some will talk about how things are cheaper and taxes are lower, etc. Then they turn around and want this service and that service.

 

As for this incident, well Giuliani is an asshole. There are people who get paid minimum wage who put up with getting yelled at, etc. and don't demean the customer. His gut instinct is completely wrong for a public servant, IMO.

[ecoli]

His gut instinct is completely wrong for a public servant, IMO.

Maybe because his instinct is that the public is his servant.