DocBill Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Ryoken Has anyone ever heard of the test where a lesbian was given daily doses of testostrone, in an effort to see how far she could be changed into a man? When I saw anything of her last of her, she had grown more like a man features wise (brawd shoulders, facial hair, muscle mass) but she did not report any psychological changes. After 6 months, although I am unsure about that time scale. Also, in the case where homosectual parent adopt children, the children do not necesarily turn out to be homosexual. So there should be more factors involved than the environment one is raised in. Although I believe that would be the most prominent. I cannot imagine such an experiement being carried out, Besides, if she was to become completely Male, most of her frontal cortex would begin to shut down from atrophy, and her limbic system would take over. She would grunt and curse about property rights, the stupid people in the world, and generally babble incoherently. I have witnessed this myself on a number of occassions at meetings. I believe the technical term is "Testoterone Toxicity." Bill
Guest Decatur Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 I think that there is a biological predisposition to homosexuality. And studies have shown this is a likely case. But of course the environment a person is raised in has a drastic effect on how a person behaves (Which makes sense). Dr. Simon LeVay did a experiment in which he measured the hypothalamus of gay and heterosexual men and women, it turns out that in the majority of gay males their hypothalamus was around the same size of a straight females, and heterosexual males had a hypothalamus about two times larger than a straight females/gay males. But then comes the question... why does it matter? We already have a population of something around six billion, and you want more?
Sayonara Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by DocBill I cannot imagine such an experiement being carried out, Besides, if she was to become completely Male, most of her frontal cortex would begin to shut down from atrophy, and her limbic system would take over. She would grunt and curse about property rights, the stupid people in the world, and generally babble incoherently. I have witnessed this myself on a number of occassions at meetings. I believe the technical term is "Testoterone Toxicity." Bill How does the the hormone therapy required for female > male transgender process work then?
YoungStrife Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Testasterone does that. On a safe scale also known as steroids it could increase size without damaging the brain enough to notice. Testasterone masculinizes, estragen feminizes...basic..easy.
blike Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Testasterone does that. On a safe scale also known as steroids it could increase size without damaging the brain enough to notice. Testasterone masculinizes, estragen feminizes...basic..easy. Im pretty sure hes got that part, but if you read in context to docbills post you'll see what he's asking.
Sayonara Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by blike Im pretty sure hes got that part, but if you read in context to docbills post you'll see what he's asking. Yes.
DocBill Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Sayonara³ How does the the hormone therapy required for female > male transgender process work then? Jesusmaryandjoseph!! It was a Joke..an attempt to lighten the duscussin with humour (that has failed.) Women say men are..... so, using hormones, precursosr, etc. to change a woman into a man and she begins to ack like...screw it..I ain't gonna start explaining my jokes. Perhaps if I had said that she "got drunk at barbeques and began telling everyone this was "Her house and if theye did not like they could...." Would it have made sense then?
DocBill Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Sorry....I thought my dry humour was obvious..but this entire discussion is so 1970's I thought some period (ha ha ) humour might be appreciated.
Skye Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Hormone treatments seem reasonably safe for women. "No serious morbidity was observed which could be related to androgen treatment in the F-->M transsexuals." Van Kesteren PJ, Asscheman H, Megens JA, Gooren LJ. (1997)Mortality and morbidity in transsexual subjects treated with cross-sex hormones. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) Sep;47(3):337-342 From this site There's lots of interesting abstracts there (they start about half way down the page).
Ryoken Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 That women ---> man experiment was carried out with her consent, and I think she had to have it done due to medical problems. I am unsure, I saw that 1 or 2 years ago.
YoungStrife Posted March 23, 2003 Posted March 23, 2003 Was she transexual. Meaning; did she believe she was a man trapped in a women's body?
spuriousmonkey Posted March 24, 2003 Posted March 24, 2003 Homosexuality can also be induced by environment. As we all might know the rate homosexual contact increases in an all-male environment. For some reason some people do not want to classify this as homosexual, because the 'perpetrators' might revert back to good old-fashioned heterosexuality once returned to a mixed society. If we would, however, use similar standards for scientific research (exclude situations we don't like to include) we would be really bad researchers. Hence my position is that homosexuality is to a large degree also dictated by environment and is not by any means fixed in the sexual nature of a person, although there is a large class of people who's homosexuality does seems to be 'fixed'.
Ahmad Posted March 29, 2003 Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by DocBill I cannot imagine such an experiement being carried out, Besides, if she was to become completely Male, most of her frontal cortex would begin to shut down from atrophy, and her limbic system would take over. She would grunt and curse about property rights, the stupid people in the world, and generally babble incoherently. I have witnessed this myself on a number of occassions at meetings. I believe the technical term is "Testoterone Toxicity." Bill This occurs if the testosteron level was high during a certain period of development. I can't imagine anything like this happening by testosterone administered after birth. The same goes for genital organs.
Ahmad Posted March 29, 2003 Posted March 29, 2003 For those who still think that homosexuality cannot be genetic because it is against natural selection, please read this paper with a lot of information about genetic causes of infertility: http://urology.ucsf.edu/patientGuides/pdf/maleInf/Genetic_Causes_Infertili.pdf
fafalone Posted March 29, 2003 Posted March 29, 2003 I don't see how that's related to homosexuality.
Skye Posted March 30, 2003 Posted March 30, 2003 It's related because it shows that physical sterility can have a genetic basis from which you could infer that psychological sterility (homosexuality) could also have a have genetic basis, i.e. it's not impossible to be have a genetic basis simply because of natural selection.
fafalone Posted March 30, 2003 Posted March 30, 2003 There's a difference between a genetic basis and a genetic cause. I haven't seen any studies that infertility and homosexuality are linked.
Skye Posted March 30, 2003 Posted March 30, 2003 That's definately true. I would bet what little money I have on there not being an absolute genetic cause of homosexuality. It isn't impossible though.
Ahmad Posted March 30, 2003 Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone There's a difference between a genetic basis and a genetic cause. I haven't seen any studies that infertility and homosexuality are linked. Some people where argueing that homosexuality is a reason for infertility, and based on that, they said that it cannot have any genetic causes, because infertility is against natural selection. So my point is this: even if it reduced fertility and fertility rate for homosexuals was zero (the lowest), that doesn't mean that there can't be any genetic cause (or influence) fot it. To better show my point, I refered to an arbitrary article about several diseases that can cause complete infertility, yet they are influenced by genetics. I'm not saying weather it is genetic or not, I'm just argueing a certain point that was made during the discussion. I think that Skye made my point very clear. Thank you Skye Anyway, I think that homosexuality does decrease the rate of fertility. The means by which homosexuals can reproduce are not possible in most of the world population because of social and technical problems. I'm not sure about the terminology: genetic causes, genetic influence? In all my discussion before this post, when I mentioned any of these terms I mean that it can be inherited. i.e.: can run in families. i.e.: you be more likely to have it because your father and your mother are who they are.
Poena Posted April 25, 2003 Posted April 25, 2003 I think I saw a post on the earlier part about it not being genetic- I havent yet read through the entire thread yet (at work too long XD) but pardon if someone has already pointed this out: I do believe it is a genetic thing over all. I remember seeing a science article and special on TV about genetics and the new system for "baby charactaristics" that you can choose. Hell of expensive, you can choose your babies eye color, hair color etc by altering their genes. You can choose their chances of what sexuality they will be with it as well. Its been a while since Ive seen this article but I do believe thats what was said. Either way, choices can be made influenced by genetic inheritance-- can it not?
NavajoEverclear Posted June 12, 2003 Posted June 12, 2003 I agree that certain genes make it a susceptibility but the human brain is so extremely complex that I don't think natural selection will ever whipe out such problems as homosexuality. Cases will still occur when imbalances or whatever occur after birth, more related to enviroment and such than genetics.
NavajoEverclear Posted June 12, 2003 Posted June 12, 2003 Another thing that makes me think homosexuality has more to do with the possible confusions of our complex brains is because: is there such thing as any animal besides humans being homosexual? Maybe this is non-applicable since humans are so different than other animals.
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