Heavens Declare A Younger Solar System

[ydoaPs]

Psalm 19 tells us that the heavens declare the glory of God. But what do the heavens declare about the age of the universe? Recent observations confirm that the universe is only a few thousand years old' date=' as the Bible says.

 

[b']The Existence of Comets[/b]

 

Comets are small, low density, icy “asteroids” that orbit the sun. But their lifetime is limited. As they come near the sun, some of their icy material is vaporized and blown away—forming a “tail.”

 

The actual body of the comet, called the “nucleus,” is very small, ranging from 1 to 30 miles (1–50 km) in diameter. It also has very low density, certainly less than that of water. Earth-based observers cannot see the nucleus. Instead they see only the gases and dust particles that come from the nucleus, including a large glowing gas ball, called a coma, and the ion and dust tails. The gas (ion) tail is blown away from the sun by solar wind, and the dust tail is forced back by the pressure of photons. The presence of tails and comas tells us that comets are constantly losing mass.

 

Comets, as well as their orbits, are greatly affected by the planets. For instance, Jupiter has corralled about 45 comets within its orbit and evidently can destroy comets; Jupiter’s gravitational field can cause comets to break apart and even collide with the planet itself. In addition, the SOHO spacecraft has regularly recorded comets being completely destroyed as they encounter the sun.

 

Many comets have been observed to break up or at least partially disintegrate. In 1852 Comet Biela was observed to divide in two, and in 1872, a meteor shower appeared in its place. Indeed, nearly all meteor showers are linked to the disintegration of known comets.

 

It is apparent that comets are temporary. And from their orbits, we find that comets do not just fall in from interplanetary space. They appear to be true members of the solar system, and so they are limited in number. If the solar system were 4.6 billion years old, our complete supply of comets should have been exhausted long ago. Instead, comets are plentiful.

 

To resolve this challenge, uniformitarian astronomers believe that long-period comets arise from the Oort cloud, a hypothesized cloud of comet nuclei with a radius of about 50,000 AU (an astronomical unit is the average distance between the earth and sun). Evolutionists Carl Sagan and Ann Druvan admit in their book entitled Comet, “Many scientific papers are written each year about the Oort Cloud, its properties, its origin, its evolution. Yet there is not yet a shred of direct observational evidence for its existence.”

 

Likewise, the shorter period comets are believed to come from the Kuiper belt, a disk of icy asteroids beginning at the orbit of Pluto (40 AU) and extending out to about 55 AU. But such objects have different characteristics from the comets, so they cannot explain the wealth of comets we see today.

 

The Moon is Still Alive . . .

 

The moon is very much alive, geologically speaking. Ever since telescopes have been available, observers have been reporting many color changes, bright and colored spots and streaks, clouds, hazes, veils, and other phenomena on the moon. Since these phenomena are short lived, they are called Transient Lunar Phenomena (TLP). These speak of geologic activity.

Aristarchus Region of the Moon

 

Over 300 transient lunar phenomena have occurred in the Aristarchus region of the moon, indicating that the moon is young, just as the Bible says.

 

From 1900 to 1960, many of these observations were dismissed and ignored because the prevailing belief was that the moon is 4.5 billion years old and has been geologically dead for the last 3 billion years. (As the argument went, since the moon is about one-fourth of the size of the earth, heavy masses would fall to the center, the moon would cool much faster than the earth, and no magma would be left.) But the number of TLP observations became so overwhelming that mainline publications began to discuss them. In 1968, NASA published the Chronological Catalog of Reported Lunar Events.

 

As early as March 1787, William Herschel, the discoverer of Uranus and an ardent lunar observer, reported, “I perceive three volcanoes in different places of the dark side of the moon. Two of them are either extinct, or otherwise in a state of going to break out. . . . The third shows an actual erupt ion of fire, or luminous matter.” The next night he continued, “The volcano burns with greater violence than last night. I believe the diameter . . . to be about three miles.” More than 300 TLP’s have been seen in the Aristarchus region alone. This and hundreds of similar observations point to the youthfulness of the moon, as the Bible tells us.

 

Jupiter and Neptune are Still So Hot

 

We have been taught that solar system bodies shine only by reflected light. Is this true? No, not for the Jovian gas giants, Jupiter and Neptune. In fact, the power excess for Jupiter is 3 x 1017 watts.1 Jupiter actually radiates nearly twice as much power as it receives from the sun, but mostly in the infrared. That’s enough power to continuously burn three million-billion 100-watt light bulbs. Saturn puts out half the energy but is one-quarter the mass, so it produces twice the energy per unit mass than Jupiter. Neptune gives off well over twice as much energy as it receives. Uranus’ energy production is somewhat in doubt, but even it appears to give off slightly more than it receives. This means that each of these three planets has an alternate energy source. What is it?

 

Jupiter puts out nearly twice the energy it receives from the sun. This makes sense if the planet is only thousands of years old.

 

The usual explanation for Jupiter’s extra energy is that it is shrinking. This converts gravitational energy into internal heat and radiation. Can this explain the extra energy? No. Shrinkage alone does not produce enough energy. Others have said that helium is raining down on the core, releasing additional gravitational energy. While that may be the explanation for Saturn and Uranus, whose surfaces are helium depleted, observations of the vibrations of the surface (asteroseismology) have shown this is not correct for Jupiter.2

 

Researchers3 have hypothesized that nuclear reactions are occurring in the core of Jupiter as a result of burning deuterium (heavy hydrogen). This requires a core temperature of 160,000 K, some 8 times hotter than the present models of Jupiter. Will this produce the extra energy? To make this work, most of the deuterium available throughout Jupiter had to simultaneously descend to its core when Jupiter formed so the deuterium would be hot enough to ignite. Once it ignited, it would burn happily for 10 billion years or more and keep Jupiter hot. This would give us a hot Jupiter like the one we see today. At first, this solution appears to be ingenious. The snag is that the deuterium layer has to assemble itself at just the right time and at the right place to sustain Jupiter’s core temperature. The same unlikely event must be repeated on Neptune.

 

The definition of a star is any large, self-gravitating gaseous sphere with continued nuclear reactions in its core. Our sun is a star. It burns hydrogen in its core. But if Jupiter and Neptune have nuclear reactions in their cores, then they are dwarf suns. There would be three suns in our solar system.

 

There is a simpler explanation. God created the Jovian planets. The heat energy comes from the creative work of God and any gravitational energy produced since then. Since they are young and quite massive, the Jovian planets have not had time to cool down. Are hot Jovian planets a problem to creationists? Absolutely not! They are only a problem to evolutionists.

 

Fast Facts

 

* Spiral galaxies rotate much too quickly for an old universe. They would be twisted beyond recognition if they were really as old as secular astronomers claim.

* The magnetic fields of planets and moons in our solar system are consistent with their age of a few thousand years, but are much too strong for an age of billions of years.

* The debris shed by disintegrating comets is what causes meteor showers. Since earth intersects such a debris field once each year, most meteor showers are annual.

 

]b]A Final Word[/b]

 

The Bible can be trusted in every area it addresses, including its scientific and historical truth. It is God’s Book, which means what it says in a plain, forthright manner. While the Bible’s revealed insights about science and history glorify the Creator and help us know Him better, its main purpose is to convey to people, like you and me, our need of Jesus Christ as Savior and God’s desire for us to live a fulfilled, joyful life with Him.

Article found here.

 

Is he right about the science?

[Mr Skeptic]

As to why planets are warm, the article seems to be purposely ignoring the most accepted explanation, that radioactive decay occurs throughout the planet especially in the core. That is also why we have helium in gas wells (accumulated alpha radiation particles)

[Reaper]

As to why planets are warm, the article seems to be purposely ignoring the most accepted explanation, that radioactive decay occurs throughout the planet especially in the core. That is also why we have helium in gas wells (accumulated alpha radiation particles)

 

Indeed. It also seems to ignore the fact that all available evidence indicates that there has been no geological activity on the moon for ages (most transient lunar phenomena are usually irreproducible and any that have been observed are attributed to either solar wind from the sun or just plain illusions produced from the atmosphere or the brain). And that Carl Sagan was an astronomer, and so on, etc.

 

 

====================================

 

The whole article is total trash otherwise, seems more like they are preaching.

[SkepticLance]

Samec's ideas seem to boil down to the 'God of the Gaps' argument. If there is a gap in our knowledge, it must be God.

 

It also ignores the sheer size of the universe. 4 billion years of comets still add up to a tiny fraction of the known mass of the solar system. A bunch of a few trillion balls of dirty ice somewhere out in space explains it nicely. Does not have to be the Oort cloud, of course. Could be that the dirty snowballs are simply drifting through the galaxy, and the odd one gets captured by the sun's gravity. However, the Oort Cloud hypothesis does explain it all very well.

 

The Oort Cloud would also contain the odd planet sized body, which would provide a gravity tug to direct those dirty snowballs with the impetus to head sunward.

[tomgwyther]

I like the ron's comments on the age of the universe, and other such questions.

It's so very comfortable to know that anything one personally doesn't understand can easily be replaced by magic.

it saves all that bother of collecting evidence, we'll just say that the magic sky god did it, and that's that!

 

I shall now sleep easily in my bed with mohammed the teddy-bear, safe in the knowledge that there's an answer for everything, and that if I disagree with the magic, I'll burn in magical hell.

 

Or.

 

I could read a different book - or several books - or maybe even observe the world around me - or the whole universe around me.

And top it off with a visit to a museum to see some dinosaurs or somthing.

[Edtharan]

Jupiter and Neptune are Still So Hot

Well the explanation is Gravity. When you compress a gas, it heats up. When gas heats up it expands.

 

So, gravity compresses the gas of Jupiter. It heats up and expands (increases pressure and resists further compression). Slowly this heat is radiated away (the inferred radiation) and Jupiter cools a bit. Gravity can then compress the gas further and it heats up again.

 

The temperatures of the Gas giants can easily be explained by very well known phenomena.

 

A Refrigerator works by expanding gas (expanding a gas cools it down), this gas then is colder than the inside of the fridge and so it absorbs some of it's temperature. Then they compress this gas and it heats up, they do this at the back of the fridge along with a heat sink. This compression causes the gas to heat up above the temperature of the room, so it looses this heat to to the environment outside the fridge. They pump the gas back into the fridge and expand it again, and so on.

 

The pressures that Jupiter exert are far greater than the pressures inside a fridge heat exchanger, yet we can get quite a large temperature difference. Also, Jupiter is many ties the size of Earth and made of gas (mostly). The amount of Heat energy given off by Jupiter can easily be accommodated by Gaseous compression.

 

The Moon is Still Alive . . .

None of those are necessarily geological phenomena. they could be caused by asteroids, disturbances in the Earth's atmosphere, interference from nearby lights, and so on. Just because the Moon is supposed to be geologically dead, does not mean that there is not other cause than the Moon must be geologically alive.

 

A volcano, or evidence of current active plate tectonics would be definite evidence, but lights, dust, and so on, are not even associated with geological activity here on Earth, why then on the Moon?

 

* Spiral galaxies rotate much too quickly for an old universe. They would be twisted beyond recognition if they were really as old as secular astronomers claim.

Nope. The edges are rotating faster than expected if it was only due to visible matter, but this extra speed means that the Galaxies would not loose their coherence.

 

Actually, the spiral shape of Galaxies is not down to the "Rotation" of the stars, but is more like a compression wave travelling through the stars and dust. As this compression wave passes through a gas cloud it triggers star formation (hence it appears brighter - along with the slightly higher density of stars).

 

* The magnetic fields of planets and moons in our solar system are consistent with their age of a few thousand years, but are much too strong for an age of billions of years.

The magnetic fields of the planets are not because they are like giant bar magnets (which do loose their strength over time). Instead, they are like a Dynamo. The motion of conducting fluid (in the case of Earth is it liquid iron) with a small magnetic field will set up a dynamo which creates a massively strong magnetic field.

 

In Jupiter this conducting fluid is compressed metallic hydrogen (if you compress hydrogen enough it acts like a metal and is conductive). There is enough of a Dynamo reaction in Jupiter for it to create the biggest structure in the entire solar system, that of it's magnetic field. Jupiter's Magnetic field is far lager than even the Sun's magnetic field (go Jupiter ).

 

* The debris shed by disintegrating comets is what causes meteor showers. Since earth intersects such a debris field once each year, most meteor showers are annual.

If a comet is on an orbit that crosses Earth, then it will leave a debris trail along that orbit. Every time that Earth crosses this debris trail, we get a meteor shower. So it is no surprise that we experience that meteor shower once a year. However, the Earth crosses several such debris trails each year, and so we experience several such meteor showers each year.

 

Now, why don't we just sweep up all the debris that are in our orbit?

 

Well that debris is also in an orbit and it is the same orbit as the comet was/is.

 

If the comet's orbit was 75 years long (Haley's Comet as an example - some comets have orbits of thousands of years), then we would expect to have a period of around 75 years between the first pass and when we encountered that same location again. It would take a very long time to sweep it all up.

 

Let's examine those long period comets, the ones that take thousands of years to complete.

 

The Existence of Comets

Ok, so we know that some comets take thousands of years to complete one orbit. Also, as they make their orbit, they can break up. This break up is the origin of the debris in their orbits, that we see as annual meteor showers.

 

The more orbits a comet does, the more debris we would expect to see in it's orbit.

 

If we can look at how much debris a comet leaves each orbit, then we can roughly work out how long that comet has been orbiting. Right?

 

Well, this has been done. Some of those comet have been orbiting for thousands of times (or more). But with an orbit of a few thousand years, this would mean a the comet has been orbiting for few million years (1000 X 1000 = 1,000,000), this means that the earth can not be as young as the Bible claims. So if the Bible is wrong about this, we need to look to other evidence as for the age of the solar system.

 

The Bible can be trusted in every area it addresses, including its scientific and historical truth.

No those comets have just proved that the solar system can not be as young as the bible claims. It is wrong. It can not be trusted in these matters.

 

It is God’s Book, which means what it says in a plain, forthright manner.

It is also self contradictory too. EG: God is all knowing. God tests Abraham faith. Question, if God is all knowing, why then was Abraham tested? He already knew the result of the test before He gave it to Abraham.

 

God is all powerful (that is there is nothing that God could not do is He chose to do so). God is benevolent and loving. God punishes eternally for our sins, when He has the capacity to forgive us of them regardless of our beliefs. Either He is A) Not all powerful and is unable to do so, or B) God likes to see us tortured for an eternity without a chance of redemption even though He has the ability to stop it. I would not consider that the actions of a Loving person (more like a psychopath).

 

The Bible makes these claims about God, and then through the actions of God, they are violated. They are self contradictory. So, either God does not exist as the Bible states, or the Bible is wrong about God.

 

While the Bible’s revealed insights about science and history glorify the Creator and help us know Him better, its main purpose is to convey to people, like you and me, our need of Jesus Christ as Savior and God’s desire for us to live a fulfilled, joyful life with Him.

Based on the content of the Bible,God comes across as a Psychopath: Kill you first born son or I will torture you eternally. Then just before he does it: Stop! It was all a test!

 

A mass murderer - for his own mistakes (all powerful remember): Noah's flood (hey I wonder what the animal rights people would say to that - the animals didn't have any sin, but they were killed along with everything else - and I think we can get Him on ecological destruction, he drowned the entire planet.

 

Racism: Favouring the Jews and helping them in wars against other nations.

 

The list goes on...

 

The "Love me or I'll torture you" is not a good reason to love someone.

[Reaper]

Based on the content of the Bible,God comes across as a Psychopath: Kill you first born son or I will torture you eternally. Then just before he does it: Stop! It was all a test!

 

A mass murderer - for his own mistakes (all powerful remember): Noah's flood (hey I wonder what the animal rights people would say to that - the animals didn't have any sin, but they were killed along with everything else - and I think we can get Him on ecological destruction, he drowned the entire planet.

 

Racism: Favouring the Jews and helping them in wars against other nations.

 

The list goes on...

 

The "Love me or I'll torture you" is not a good reason to love someone.

 

I think "sociopath" is the correct term here.

[Mr Skeptic]

Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

 

Proof that supernovae don't exist!

[SkepticLance]

Just a small point of correction. The bible does not actually say how old the Earth or the universe are. It says that God created it all in 6 days, but some biblical scholars argue that the word that was translated as 'days' might have meant 'time period'.

 

It is some rather silly biblical scholars who nit pick their way through the bible, and calculate, using some rather weird assumptions, that the Earth is 6,000 years old. It is a long time since I read the bible, but I recall that it is very ambiguous on time periods.

 

These days, I rely on science publications. Much more reliable.

[Reaper]

The notion that it is 6000 years old is based on St.Augustine's original calculation, which assumed that the world began at 4004 B.C. Basically he just took all of the people in the bible, estimated how long they lived, and estimated the time period that these events supposedly took place in.

 

But otherwise, you are correct, there IS nothing in the bible that says anything about its age. In fact, the Bible also assumed the Earth was flat (or at least that there was only one continent... unlikely though)!

[Mr Skeptic]

Just a small point of correction. The bible does not actually say how old the Earth or the universe are. It says that God created it all in 6 days, but some biblical scholars argue that the word that was translated as 'days' might have meant 'time period'.

 

It is some rather silly biblical scholars who nit pick their way through the bible, and calculate, using some rather weird assumptions, that the Earth is 6,000 years old. It is a long time since I read the bible, but I recall that it is very ambiguous on time periods.

 

These days, I rely on science publications. Much more reliable.

 

The calculations are based on genealogies (which say only years but not months and days). Jesus has a genealogy traced all the way back to Adam; most of these genealogies mention ages (elsewhere) so you just add them up. From what I understand (and I read the whole book), if you get rid of the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve as the first two humans, you might as well get rid of all the rest too.

[Fred56]

Isn't there a theory (more an idea I s'pose) that the Judaeo-Christian creation mythology represents what actually happened (ignoring the time problem or what is meant by a 'day') more closely than most others. Bearing in mind that the J-C mythology was adopted from Eastern (Persian, Hindu, etc) creation etc myths?

Please don't respond with "how can you say the Bible is accurate" stuff, for crying out loud....

[ydoaPs]

Isn't there a theory (more an idea I s'pose) that the Judaeo-Christian creation mythology represents what actually happened (ignoring the time problem or what is meant by a 'day') more closely than most others. Bearing in mind that the J-C mythology was adopted from Eastern (Persian, Hindu, etc) creation etc myths?

Please don't respond with "how can you say the Bible is accurate" stuff, for crying out loud....

Creationism?

[Fred56]

Well, Genesis says something about a formless 'void' becoming a planet. Then the solar system is meant to have formed from a cloud of gas and dust, f'rinstance.

[Reaper]

Isn't there a theory (more an idea I s'pose) that the Judaeo-Christian creation mythology represents what actually happened (ignoring the time problem or what is meant by a 'day') more closely than most others. Bearing in mind that the J-C mythology was adopted from Eastern (Persian, Hindu, etc) creation etc myths?

Please don't respond with "how can you say the Bible is accurate" stuff, for crying out loud....

 

Only in the later chapters and verses, and even then its quite a bit of a stretch. The bible is just simply too vague to be used as a historical apparatus. It is usually only used to analyse the viewpoints of early Christian persecution, and some specific details of Roman society.

 

And a large part of the old testament (especially the Genesis) was ripped right off of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology.

[Riogho]

1st)

 

No where in the bible does it say that the universe is only 6000 years old. It mentions the days of creation, but time is only a way to measure change in our universe, and we all KNOW time is relative. So maybe time is relative to god as going really freaking fast.

 

2nd)

 

The 6000 year theory fails in many regards, the simplest one as being this:

How many galaxies do you know of that are within 6000 light years of us? Not many, I am assuming. How many galaxies are there farther then 6000 light years away? A ton.

 

Now tell me, how would the light from those galaxies traveled all the way here, in merely 6k years?

[Realitycheck]

And a large part of the old testament (especially the Genesis) was ripped right off of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology.

 

Actually there is pending litigation going on between the Jews and the Mesopotamians. I'm going for the Mesopotamians. They provided actual clay documentation, circa 3,000-6,000 BC. The Jews are still looking for theirs. Plus, I think it is totally bad-ass to say that your ancestors lived to be hundreds of thousands years old, instead of the mere hundreds of years that the Jews claim. I think they will win.

[Fred56]

the J-C mythology was adopted from Eastern (Persian, Hindu, etc) creation etc myths?

a large part of the old testament (especially the Genesis) was ripped right off of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology.

Checkaroony.

So at least two of us agree that the Judaeo-Christian mythology was borrowed from the East.

 

My point being the Genesis account' date=' supposedly can be "fitted" more closely to the current [b']ideas[/b] of planetary and solar system formation, and cosmology, and even the appearance of life (all you need to do, really, is convert or transfer the terminology to a symbolic form that is a more 'modern' idiom). Though the Biblical account as a "compressed" or "concise" algebra is pretty 'lossy'. But it differs significantly from its Eastern parent.

[Realitycheck]

Checkaroony.

So at least two of us agree that the Judaeo-Christian mythology was borrowed from the East.

 

My point being the Genesis account, supposedly can be "fitted" more closely to the current ideas of planetary and solar system formation, and cosmology, and even the appearance of life (all you need to do, really, is convert or transfer the terminology to a symbolic form that is a more 'modern' idiom). Though the Biblical account as a "compressed" or "concise" algebra is pretty 'lossy'. But it differs significantly from its Eastern parent.

 

As with all analogical comparisons, the degree of simplicity involved dictates the ease with which they are applied. They said the heavens, we say universe. It's all matter, like comparing apples to golden apples, until God and the Devil start talking to people. Did you see that movie, A Beautiful Mind? He needed ten weeks of shock therapy and then still had to separate what was real and what was delusion.

[Fred56]

Aren't you implying that all creation mythology is based on delusional thinking?

[richard]

When you speak of heat there are a few factors. Theres the heat generated as a planet is formed. Its mass increases, gravity increases and more compression produces more frictional heating. Impacts cause heating. Large mass takes longer to cool and has more insulation. Elliptical orbits cause stretching and contorting of moons and planets which creates frictional heating.

[Edtharan]

No where in the bible does it say that the universe is only 6000 years old. It mentions the days of creation, but time is only a way to measure change in our universe, and we all KNOW time is relative.

This is a bad use of the word "Relative". It borders on the Equivocation (link wikipedia) logical fallacy.

 

So maybe time is relative to god as going really freaking fast.

But relativity is part of this universe, so is God subject to the laws of this universe? If He is, then how did He create it? And, if He had to create it within the laws of this universe, then why can't we just use the laws of this universe and apply Occam's Razor and eliminate God?

[SkepticLance]

To Fred

 

We cannot determine what creation mythology was based on. It was all invented so many thousand years ago that no record remains of its inception. Even the record in Genesis was written down long after the myths were actually invented.

 

We can only speculate. There was no scientific method at the time, and no-one actually knew anything about what the stars were, or the planets, or how long the Earth had existed etc. My own speculation is that it all began with stories, invented by a story teller. The ancient equivalent of a fantasy novelist.

[Fred56]

My own speculation is that it all began with stories, invented by a story teller. The ancient equivalent of a fantasy novelist.

Seriously? How about flood mythologies (a common religious theme)? Where did the Genesis account get the idea of the Earth 'condensing' (it doesn't actually use this word, but I think it implies that the world 'formed'), from some formless 'thing'?

[Realitycheck]

Seriously? How about flood mythologies (a common religious theme)? Where did the Genesis account get the idea of the Earth 'condensing' (it doesn't actually use this word, but I think it implies that the world 'formed'), from some formless 'thing'?

 

The Bible is full of stories. Even most of the New Testament books were not actually written down until 50-100 AD.