ecoli Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Hillary! Hillary and Obama were chosen by Time as 'people who matter' in one category. Ron Paul was also selected as a 'person who matters' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 How many do they have to kill before they get your vote? Or is it gross incompetence that floats your boat? Hmmm.. sounds like a Jesse Jackson campaign slogan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think Putin was a good choice. I agree. He has stopped his people being fleeced by the multinationals, oligarchs and gangsters. He doesn't crumble as soon as the companies raise their eyebrows like western leaders. Al Gore should have run for President. He'd have won hands down this time. How on Earth could anyone think Putin was a good choice? He had just finished converting Russia back into a dictatorship by staging a rigged election, and he gets lauded by the west? Ludicrous! The USA is a dictatorship. You are just made to think you have a say! All you get to vote on is colour of the ship, not the direction it's going. The West exports capitalism, not democracy. And the USA should know all about rigged elections. You had one in 2000 remember! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 A dictatorship with separation of powers and checks and balances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 Apparently. Of course, even as I laugh at Bombus' wacky dictatorship comment, I am reminded that Florida voters presently have no say in the current Democratic presidential race, having been disenfranchised by their own party, and Republican voters only get half credit, and all because the state simply changed its primary date. And three or four other states are in the same boat, and nobody in the media is saying anything about the greatest disenfranchisement of voters in the entire history of the US because it plays right into their drama-based agenda. Jesse Jackson was happy to march in 2000 when a few thousand fools punched their cards wrong, but when millions are robbed by the elite power structure of this country, nobody cares. We may not be a dictatorship, but we're too damned close to an oligarchy sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Apparently. Of course, even as I laugh at Bombus' wacky dictatorship comment, I am reminded that Florida voters presently have no say in the current Democratic presidential race, having been disenfranchised by their own party, and Republican voters only get half credit, and all because the state simply changed its primary date. And three or four other states are in the same boat, and nobody in the media is saying anything about the greatest disenfranchisement of voters in the entire history of the US because it plays right into their drama-based agenda. Jesse Jackson was happy to march in 2000 when a few thousand fools punched their cards wrong, but when millions are robbed by the elite power structure of this country, nobody cares. We may not be a dictatorship, but we're too damned close to an oligarchy sometimes. I agree, it's a dictatorship by 'The Companies' - so really an Oligarchy. The checks and balances don't really help much though do they? They pacify the population by making them believe the system must therefore be fair. They don't really work on the BIG issues. The checks and balances, and the supposed 'democracy' ensure that the status quo always remains, with very very little change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 And the USA should know all about rigged elections. You had one in 2000 remember! I am not American (thank God!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 There is no evidence that the 2000 election was rigged. Severian I'm disappointed in you for supporting that sort of comment, not to mention the anti-American sentiment. If someone made a comment like that about your country you'd be outraged. And you're behaving exactly like that which you clearly despise, so what does that say about you? The checks and balances don't really help much though do they? They pacify the population by making them believe the system must therefore be fair. They don't really work on the BIG issues. The checks and balances, and the supposed 'democracy' ensure that the status quo always remains, with very very little change! I think the checks and balances DO help, in that we would be much worse off without them. What I might agree with you on is that certain elements of society (including some elements you may typically favor) have gotten better at working around those checks and balances, and that they need improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Let's not get into semantics. The 2000 election may not have been "rigged," but it sure wasn't kosher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Let's not get into semantics. The 2000 election may not have been "rigged," but it sure wasn't kosher. Let's not pawn off as "semantics" what is in fact a monstrous difference in meaning, nor obscure amidst cheap rhetoric what we really mean to say. If you want to sweep the conspiracy theorists up in your dragnet for support for the evils of Republicans, fine, but don't pretend like you're doing anybody a favor. And frankly if I tried to pull something like that on global warming you would be apoplectic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ae-paa-plect-tick? Does that mean not happy? Fair enough. You would be hard pressed to argue that the election went forward without questions and concerns, but I agree that "rigged" is too extreme and I should not just "pawn it off" as semantics. Oh.. btw... GO GIANTS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Not only do I not argue with those characterizations, I completely agree with them. And many of them can be blamed on politics. You weren't here for some of our best discussions on this subject -- I was actually one of the folks who had their ballot box "go missing" for several hours, only to mysteriously turn up in a warehouse, unattended (but my district was solidly for Gore, so I used to use this as a humorous counter-example). You also missed some of my best rants about Katherine "Taking Back the Country for Christ" Harris and her bid for the Senate in 2006. Ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhDP Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hu Jintao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 You also missed some of my best rants about Katherine "Taking Back the Country for Christ" Harris and her bid for the Senate in 2006. I thought that was a Huckabee quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Ho ho ho, how blindly jingoistic you US citizens can be! Do you honestly think I'd be upset if you said UK elections were rigged? Anyway, I nonetheless agree that rigged is a bit strong, but it was a judicial coup, made possible by denying the vote to black and other likely democrat voters. Basically, all I was trying to say is that it's a bit rich for the US to say that the Russian election was dodgy! Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone etc.. Also, as I have often said, I am not anti-American. I am anti-capitalist, and anti Bush, and anti right-wing, but not anti-American. I think the checks and balances DO help, in that we would be much worse off without them. What I might agree with you on is that certain elements of society (including some elements you may typically favor) have gotten better at working around those checks and balances, and that they need improvement. There are many good checks and balances in the US that protect citizens freedoms and rights in principle. However, in general the US system favours the companies, the establishment, the rich, and allows the poor and middle classes to be ripped off and the environment damaged. The checks and balances that are in place end up being ineffective but pacify the people allowing the rip-off to continue. I think we've gone a bit off-topic here:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Basically, all I was trying to say is that it's a bit rich for the US to say that the Russian election was dodgy! Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone etc.. Even if I agreed with you about the 2000 election, Bombus, two wrongs don't make a right. Nobody can criticize unless they're perfect? Fine, name a perfect country, please. I need a good laugh. Also, as I have often said, I am not anti-American. I am anti-capitalist, and anti Bush, and anti right-wing, but not anti-American. It's good to admit your bias. Get it out in the open, show people that you're aware of it. Good for you. There are many good checks and balances in the US that protect citizens freedoms and rights in principle. However, in general the US system favours the companies, the establishment, the rich, and allows the poor and middle classes to be ripped off and the environment damaged. The checks and balances that are in place end up being ineffective but pacify the people allowing the rip-off to continue. All of that is true, including the sentiment behind it. What's really gonna knock your socks off, Bombus, is when you realize that the opposite is also true, and that it's really the playing off of these two favorings that makes this country work as well as it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 What's really gonna knock your socks off, Bombus, is when you realize that the opposite is also true, and that it's really the playing off of these two favorings that makes this country work as well as it does. I'd have to disagree with you. Who is actually winning? Who gets the nice life? Who gets the money, power, privilage? Who does the system ultimately benefit? Who does most of the dying to maintain this system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 I'd really love to answer your questions, but I've got to go through at least another dozen dumpsters tonight to feed my 13 starving children, just like everyone else. Where you guys find time to talk about politics in these desperate and dreadful times is sure beyond me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I'd have to disagree with you. Who is actually winning? Who gets the nice life? Who gets the money, power, privilage? Who does the system ultimately benefit? Who does most of the dying to maintain this system? Are you implying that life isn't fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I think that perhaps Bombus is trying to make a different point... more that the neuroses in our current system of government are self-reinforcing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I think that perhaps Bombus is trying to make a different point... more that the neuroses in our current system of government are self-reinforcing. Is there a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I'd really love to answer your questions, but I've got to go through at least another dozen dumpsters tonight to feed my 13 starving children, just like everyone else. Where you guys find time to talk about politics in these desperate and dreadful times is sure beyond me! LOL! Read these lyrics: SYSTEMATIC DEATH system, system, system - death in life system, system, system - the surgeons knife system, system, system - hacking at the cord system, system, system - a child is born poor little ****er, poor little kid never asked for life, no she never did poor little baby, poor little mite crying out for food as her parents fight crying out for food as her parents fight! system, system, system - send him to school system, system, system - force him to crawl system, system, system - teach him how to cheat system, system, system - kick him off his feet poor little schoolboy, poor little lad they'll pat him if he's good, beat him if he's bad poor little kiddy, poor little chap they'll force feed his mind with their useless crap force feed his mind with their useless crap! system, system, system - they'll teach her how to cook system, system, system - they'll teach her how to look system, system, system - they'll teach her all the tricks system, system, system - create another victim for their greasy pricks poor little girly, poor little wench another little object to prod and pinch poor little sweety, poor little filly they'll **** her mind so they can **** her silly **** her mind so they can **** her silly! system, system, system - he's grown to be a man system, system, system - he's been taught to fit the plan system, system, system - forty years of jobs system, system, system - pushing little buttons, pulling little knobs poor ****ing worker, poor little serf working like a mule for half of what he's worth poor ****ing grafter, poor little gent working for the cash that he's already spent working for the cash that he's already spent! he's selling his life, she's his loyal wife timid as a mouse, she's got her little house he's got his little car and they share the cocktail bar she likes to cook his meals, you know, something that appeals sometimes he works til late so his supper has to wait but she doesn't really mind cos he's getting overtime he likes to put a bit away just for that rainy day cos every little counts when the cost of living mounts they do the pools each week hoping for that lucky break then they'd take a trip abroad, do all the things they can't afford she'd really like to have a fur, he'd like a bigger car they could buy a bungalow, with a georgian door for show he might think of leaving work, but no, he wouldn't like to shirk he'd much prefer to stay and get his honest days pay he's got a life of work ahead, there's no rest for the dead she's tried to make it nice, he's said thankyou once or twice system, system, system - deprived of any hope system, system, system - taught they couldn't cope system, system, system - slaves right from the start system, system, system - til death do them part poor little ****ers, what a sorry pair had their lives stolen, but they didn't really care poor little darlings, just your ordinary folks victims of the system and its cruel jokes victims of the system and its cruel jokes! the couple views the wreckage and dreams of home sweet home they'd almost paid their mortgage when the system dropped its bomb. I think that perhaps Bombus is trying to make a different point... more that the neuroses in our current system of government are self-reinforcing. Indeed, and who creates that neurosis? The USA (in fact the West) fights itself - all over the world. Are you implying that life isn't fair? Life isn't fair, but maybe we should be trying to make it as fair as we can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 LOL! Read these lyrics: I'm not really interested in faith-based emotional appeal, but thanks anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Life isn't fair, but maybe we should be trying to make it as fair as we can? Tell you what, I will come up with a solution and YOU agree to live by it. How's that sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Tell you what, I will come up with a solution and YOU agree to live by it. How's that sound? If it's a good one, fine by me. If it's not, why don't we both agree on a solution that benefits us both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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