chickens and fish

[quantam110]

I have two questions regarding a fish and a chicken.

 

does a chicken have consciousness, that is does a chicken know it feels pain or does it just react to pain as a part of biology?because I want to know if it really does suffer or does it just react that way because of internal mechanisms.

 

for the fish I have the same question as well,(fish that are eaten for nutritional value)

[thedarkshade]

None of them have consciousness! It you look up the term "consciousness" in philosophy you will see the how complicated is being conscious! It is proved that animals (chickens and fish in this case) have psychical processes, but consciousness is far more complicated than that!

Have you ever been fishing? I mean, if you catch a fish and mark that fish with something so you can identify it from the others, you will still end up catching it again. I've heard somewhere that fish's memory lasts about 10 seconds.

 

No, they have no consciousness!

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The question of whether they can feel pain, however, is a mite different. We can't exactly ask the fish "did that hurt?" and we can't sufficiently define how an animal feels pain, so there is still open debate on the subject. They may not be sentient, but does pain depend on sentience?

 

Also, thedarkshade: fish can and do have memories that last much longer than ten seconds. Their memory isn't really relevant to pain, though.

[thedarkshade]

... and we can't sufficiently define how an animal feels pain...

What do you mean we can't? It's quite easily actually. Take a needle and touch a chicken with it! The chicken will run away. This is because it felt something. And that something is pain because it ran away.

Also, thedarkshade: fish can and do have memories that last much longer than ten seconds. Their memory isn't really relevant to pain, though.

OK, I said "I've heard somewhere" and that's quite informal. Thnx for letting me know!

 

Cheers,

Shade

[quantam110]

What do you mean we can't? It's quite easily actually. Take a needle and touch a chicken with it! The chicken will run away. This is because it felt something. And that something is pain because it ran away.

 

but do they know they are feeling pain? is my question because feeling pain and knowing your feeling pain are two different things, I've seen many lectures on consciousness and how they can just be the term zombie, because without consciousness that would mean that they do feel pain but they don't know that they are feeling pain.

 

I just need some clearing up to whether or not they know they feel pain,(sentient beings, which would mean that vegans could possibly eat chickens)

 

thanks in advance

[thedarkshade]

but do they know they are feeling pain?

It's not really that they know they're feeling pain. Their reaction toward pain is instinctive. After all, it's just a electric impulse!

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Okay, but does the chicken really suffer? That's what the OP wanted to know, and that's what you can't determine.

[quantam110]

so if a chicken gets pricked by a needle it can't be or not yet known whether the animal suffers as a human would?

[iNow]

Of course something stuck with a needle both feels pain and suffers. The ONLY way that it wouldn't is if you restrict your definition of "pain and suffering" to an illogically narrow and inaccurate window to suit some purpose.

[YT2095]

I think what you`d need to do is get one of each as strip it down to component level and examine the parts, in particular the types of Nerves used and their placement and distribution.

this would go a long way to answering the Pain question.

[ydoaPs]

After all, it's just a electric impulse!

 

Just like yours.

[thedarkshade]

Just like yours.

Well I am conscious that it is an electric impulse, and that is a thing that neither nor fish have.

 

Does a fish know what electric impulse it???

 

Gee:cool:

[insane_alien]

it knows enough to react to it.

[thedarkshade]

it knows enough to react to it.

An instinctive reaction!

[insane_alien]

so are ours. it takes practise and repetition for us to even slightly surpress our reactions. the differencee between us and a chicken is we can train ourselves to supress instinct(though we can't eliminate it).

[thedarkshade]

If something causes us pain in one occasion, then we learn from that and try to avoid that something. But chicken and fish can suffer pain from the same thing many times and yet they don't try to avoid it!

[iNow]

If something causes us pain in one occasion, then we learn from that and try to avoid that something. But chicken and fish can suffer pain from the same thing many times and yet they don't try to avoid it!

 

You seem to be arguing from a bunch of unsupported speculations. Do you have evidence of some sort to back these claims?

 

 

If you can't, I KNOW I could find instances where fish and chickens have both learned and been taught.

[insane_alien]

If something causes us pain in one occasion, then we learn from that and try to avoid that something. But chicken and fish can suffer pain from the same thing many times and yet they don't try to avoid it!

 

so, your arguing against their capacity to assosciate the conditions preceding pain and the pain itself. because they do have the capacity to learn new behaviours, it jus takes longer than more intelligent animals like dogs.

 

this does not mean that pain will not cause them to suffer.

 

and i have seen humans do things that cause pain to themselves many many times. people with no obvious mental deficences at that as well. i should know, i display a similar behaviour myself.

179 230VAC electric shocks and counting.

[foursixand2]

I think a better question is do we even have consciousness to speak of, to say we are superior in this respect to the rest of known creation. To which i would say barely. We are the first animal we know of that has begun to be able to view ourselves in the abstract, to be able to imagine ourselves from a point of view outside ourself. Beyond that i think the majority of the distinction we percieve between us and animals is an arrogant illusion

[thedarkshade]

and i have seen humans do things that cause pain to themselves many many times.

But they are conscious of what they're doing!

 

And please take a look at the philosophical way of what consciousness is. You'll find the complexity in there.

[insane_alien]

But they are conscious of what they're doing!

 

sometimes. i certainly am not conciously shocking myself.

 

And please take a look at the philosophical way of what consciousness is. You'll find the complexity in there.

 

so? complexity doesn;t mean a chicken doesn't have it. doesn't mean we have it either.

[thedarkshade]

sometimes. i certainly am not conciously shocking myself.

 

 

 

so? complexity doesn;t mean a chicken doesn't have it. doesn't mean we have it either.

 

This kind of skepticism is really non-sense. You (as human) have the ability to understand the very complex processes in our organism (just example) How can you possibly do that without consciousness?

 

And do chickens have anatpmical atlases of their bodies?

[iNow]

This kind of skepticism is really non-sense. You (as human) have the ability to understand the very complex processes in our organism (just example) How can you possibly do that without consciousness?

 

And do chickens have anatpmical atlases of their bodies?

 

You're not really doing a very good job of supporting your point. IA is completely correct. You're making a bunch of assumptions and arguing from those, but we've both been calling those assumptions into question. Conclusions reached based on false premises are themselves false.

[thedarkshade]

You guys really doubt that we are conscious?

[iNow]

You guys really doubt that we are conscious?

 

Define consciousness so I can answer your question without it being completely ungrounded and undefined speculation.