thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 It's a complicated term. But the fact the we are doubting about it, makes us conscious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness
Psyber Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 The problem is determining what consciousness is. When a local wild King Parrot comes to the bird feeder on my verandah and finds it empty, and it then goes to the kitchen window where my wife may be or the study window where I may be, sits on the window ledge and whistles, then meets you at the bird feeder by the time you have stood up and gone out with the seed, is it performing a conscious act? Yes, I can tell the individual birds apart - well about 10 of them - by variations in their red and green plumage. I can also pick the one [male] who like others sits on your arm to eat out of your hand, but unlike the others bites your thumb when the seed runs out if you are not quick with the refill.
leeirons Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 I am not a biologist, neurologist, or psychologist, but I do know a little bit about science. It seems to me, we first need at least three things before we can proceed with answering the question: 1. Agree on a definition of “knowing pain” 2. Make sure the definition is measurable: without a measurable theoretical quantity, we can never collect data to prove a hypothesis; we are still left speculating 3. Make a hypothesis and propose an experiment by which is would be proven (whether or not we have the technology yet to do it the experiement) Without these three things, the discussion will stay in the metaphysical realm, and we will not be able to proceed toward answering the original question.
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 I1. Agree on a definition of “knowing pain” When you are asleep and someone pinches you on the hand. You just react by moving the hand away, but yet still continue sleeping. This is the case when chicken feels pain. It's just instinctive!
insane_alien Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 most people will also do it when awake as well. you still haven't defined knowing pain in any solid way. i'll submit this definition in the hopes we can move on a bit. 'knowing' pain is the ability to interpret a signal from a pain receptor and take action to stop the pain signal by moving away or another action. pain is the signal sent by certain nerve endings when they detect damage. testing it is easy. do something that would cause pain(doesn't need to be severe, a light pinch would be sufficient) and see if the organism reacts. if the organism reacts the it can feel pain.
leeirons Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 Insane Alien has made a proposal on the theory. The key now (to the development of the theory) is to build on this, and not tear it down with all or nothing comments. I recommend discussing everything from the position of THIS statement of theory, and ADJUSTING the statement as necessary toward the end of obtaining a majority AGREEMENT withn the group. If Insane Alien is completely wrong in the statement, that will play out in the discussion and adjustment of the statement. In the end, the building statement we end up with might look completely different. Now the discussion can continue. Don't lose sight of this first statement. Return, review, and adjust as necessary every so often.
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 testing it is easy. do something that would cause pain(doesn't need to be severe, a light pinch would be sufficient) and see if the organism reacts. if the organism reacts the it can feel pain. Didn't I say under post #4... Take a needle and touch a chicken with it! The chicken will run away. This is because it felt something. And that something is pain because it ran away.
insane_alien Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 so, why are you arguing it doesn't suffer then?
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 so, why are you arguing it doesn't suffer then? I'm not arguing about whether it is suffering or not. Pain means suffer (at least to me), but I completely oppose the idea that chicken or fish or anything except humans can have consciousness.
YT2095 Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 we ARE Scientist right? (well some of us). and so I refer you back to post #10 I made. THAT is how you`r going to know for Sure! and it doesn`t help this thread having 2 different convos about 2 different things going on at the same time either. what is it, Nerves and pain, or Consciousness?
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 what is it, Nerves and pain, or Consciousness? The guy asked if fish and chicken are conscious of feeling pain. And I think that their reaction toward pain is just instinctive, because consciousness is far more complicated than just reacting to electric impulses.
YT2095 Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 that`s fine but the whole thing is Drifting towards the sillysophical args, whereby with a little dissection and knowing what you`r looking for (probably already done and documented by someone) the whole thing is answered in one go but it`s essential to get One question answered FIRST before ANY attempt at the second part can be made. it`s only Logical!
insane_alien Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 darkshade, as conciousness is a convoluted and complex subject, it would make sense that there is not just one state of conciousness. there would be many 'levels'(well, it would really be more like a spectrum where the colours blend into each other with no definite boundary) of it. why wouldn't a chicken have some level of conciousness. it can learn, it can imitate, it can make choices. just because they are not as complex behaviours as we display does not mean that the chicken isn't concious. its just not very concious.
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 When you are asleep and someone pinches you on the hand. You just react by moving the hand away, but yet still continue sleeping. This is the case when chicken feels pain. It's just instinctive! How do you know?
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 How do you know? If you are referring to that sleeping part, I've seen that hundreds of times! to IA: In what criteria according to you we would classify consciousness?
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 If you are referring to that sleeping part, I've seen that hundreds of times! I'm referring to the assertion that that is how chickens "feel" it. How do you know that?
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 I'm referring to the assertion that that is how chickens "feel" it. How do you know that? Because that's nothing but an electric impulse that goes through nerves!
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 Same with us. But does the chicken know about being an electric impulse. It's unconscious of that!
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 How do you know? Well, so far no chicken has told me anythings about science. Has it told you anything?
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 Well, so far no chicken has told me anythings about science. Has it told you anything? Does that mean that a mute person is not sentient? And besides, its lack of science knowledge does not mean that it does not "feel" the pain. It does not change anything.
thedarkshade Posted January 1, 2008 Posted January 1, 2008 I agree that it feels pain, but its reaction toward pain is just instinctive, not conscious. I've been saying that for ages!!!
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