Animal Behavior: suicide

[iNow]

So... I thought the definition of suicide was to engage in an act that will result in the loss of one's own life. Now that we've begun to generate a list of non-humans which also do this it appears you want to change and limit that definition in an attempt to make humans somehow "special."

 

Am I misinterpreting you? Can you share which definition you plan on using for the rest of the thread?

[DrDNA]

Chill out.

I'm not here to change anything. But I am here to learn and to engage in intellectually stimulatiing endeavors' like this .............

Here are some defs of suicide from Websters online. They may or may not fit my statements above, but so be it. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep if'en they don't.

 

Main Entry: 1sui·cide

Pronunciation: \ˈsü-ə-ˌsīd\

Function: noun

Etymology: Latin sui (genitive) of oneself + English -cide; akin to Old English & Old High German sīn his, Latin suus one's own, sed, se without, Sanskrit sva oneself, one's own

Date: 1643

1 a: the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b: ruin of one's own interests <political suicide> c: apoptosis <cell suicide>

2: one that commits or attempts suicide

adjective

Date: 1773

: of or relating to suicide; especially : being or performing a deliberate act resulting in the voluntary death of the person who does it <a suicide mission> <a suicide bomber>

Main Entry: 3suicide

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): sui·cid·ed; sui·cid·ing

Date: 1841

intransitive verb

: to commit suicide

transitive verb

: to put (oneself) to death

 

Edit:

So, it appears that since apoptosis is considered suicide, what a bee and an ant do to protect its hive or colony should also be considered suicide, and it looks like I am wrong....oh my God

However, I do still believe that killing yourself knowingly and unknowingly and/or for a percieved bigger cause are different. But that may be a different debate.....

[thedarkshade]

Just some confirmation, but I believe humans are the only animals that can/do commit suicide?

I dont believe any other animal or plant for that matter kills it self?

I once saw a video in which a big monkey (probably female) and a small one (probably it's "kid") were punt inside a container which had fire at the bottom.

 

And the two monkeys were trying with all they could to avoid the fire, trying to stay alive. That went on for quite a long time. And I guess they got tired and the big monkey took it's kid and placed it at the hole were the fire was coming from. The small monkey (of course) got all burnt and the fire went off. And if only you'd seen the look on the mother's face. So sad!

 

After all, we got A LOT in common with other animals!

[iNow]

Chill out.

 

<...>

Edit:

it looks like I am wrong....oh my God

 

Likewise, friend. Ditto on the request for temperature decrease. My intention was not to make you appear wrong, but to ensure this discussion was meaningful... less arbitrary. The definition of the term seemed very clear at the beginning of the thread, but I sensed it morphing. Let's agree on a definition and stick with that.

 

Carry on.

[DrDNA]

What's wrong with morphing?

[iNow]

Nothing, so long as we all do it together.

[bombus]

A more familiar example of animal suicide would be the bee. They're like suicide bombers, only with stingers instead of explosives. Oh, and I think bees might kill more people than suicide bombers do (due to allergies), but I'm not sure of that last bit.

 

Bees don't really count:

 

1. Workers cannot reproduce so don't act like 'normal' individuals. A beehive should be thought of as a single animal in this sense. This also applies to ants hence examples of individual ants sacrificing themselves for the colony.

 

2. Bees only lose their stings when stinging animals with relatively tough hides, e.g a human. When they sting other insects they don't lose their stingers so don't die.

 

On a more general note, apart from pining to death (which isn't quite the same as suicide) I can think of no animal apart from humans that commits suicide. Perhaps this is because animals do not have an ego to protect, and also as far as we can guess, do not really have a concept of life/death complicated enough to make them see death as an escape.

 

I once saw a video in which a big monkey (probably female) and a small one (probably it's "kid") were punt inside a container which had fire at the bottom.

 

And the two monkeys were trying with all they could to avoid the fire, trying to stay alive. That went on for quite a long time. And I guess they got tired and the big monkey took it's kid and placed it at the hole were the fire was coming from. The small monkey (of course) got all burnt and the fire went off. And if only you'd seen the look on the mother's face. So sad!

 

After all, we got A LOT in common with other animals!

 

Woah, what video's have you been watching?

[thedarkshade]

Woah, what video's have you been watching?

Painful ones:-p !

 

A friend showed me that. He said it was home-made!

[Mag]

Thanks for all the replies!

So, it seems the general consensus is that no, other animals cannot commit suicide - except for perhaps whales beaching themselves, which, however, could be for a variety of reasons.

 

and someone else mentioned ants... but what they mentioned was more like it was commanded by other ants... hmm.

 

and yes, I dont think Bees count, its not like the bee said "gee, Im glad my stinger will rip off part of my body when I sting something" lol

[Reaper]

Bees, alright I can accept that as not counting.

 

But ants, and termites for that matter, do count. It doesn't really matter if it is conscious decision, or if it is done on command (e.g. the attack on the twin towers was done on command, and so were kamikazee's, etc.), or anything else really. The point is that the individual members have the capability of doing so, and in many species that I know of many of the members, other than the "queen", are capable of reproducing (or have the potential to do so if key hormones are activated). Whatever the reasons, collective or not, don't really matter. All that is necessary is that they can and have been observed doing so. (Ants, actually, are capable of doing a whole bunch of other things that humans can also do, but that's for another thread).

 

So, there are a few other non human species that we know of that can, and certainly do, commit suicide.

[Paralith]

Bees, alright I can accept that as not counting.

 

But ants, and termites for that matter, do count. It doesn't really matter if it is conscious decision, or if it is done on command (e.g. the attack on the twin towers was done on command, and so were kamikazee's, etc.), or anything else really. The point is that the individual members have the capability of doing so, and in many species that I know of many of the members, other than the "queen", are capable of reproducing (or have the potential to do so if key hormones are activated). Whatever the reasons, collective or not, don't really matter. All that is necessary is that they can and have been observed doing so. (Ants, actually, are capable of doing a whole bunch of other things that humans can also do, but that's for another thread).

 

So, there are a few other non human species that we know of that can, and certainly do, commit suicide.

 

By this logic, I see no reason why you should discount bees. There is just as great a variety in the wasp and bee groups as there are in the ant and termite groups. I myself have read research done on a wasp species whose individuals can choose between reproducing on their own or living in a colony.

 

Anyhow, if all the OP wanted to know is if other animals besides humans can carry out activities that they know could and/or will cause their own death, then the answer is of course yes. If the OP wanted to know if other animals commit suicide for all the same reasons as humans do, then I would say the answer is mostly no.

 

Humans have committed suicide for causes common in the animal world, such as defense of offspring or kin or perceived kin (e.g. king and country). However, humans also commit suicide not to aid their kin, but with the sole and highly intentional purpose of ending their own misery. Other animals may die from side-effects of stress and depression, but they are not doing so because they know it will cause them to die and that's what they want.

 

The only animals suggested with any evidence in this thread that may kill themselves for these reasons are dolphins/whales and elephants. But even for both these examples, there is equal evidence to suggest that there are other reasons for their seemingly suicidal behavior.

[DrDNA]

That is very good Para.

 

It seems somewhat clear to me that whales and dolphins are probably not really commiting suicide....perhaps they are just disoriented. Elephants, maybe so.

But am I alone in remaining unclear if bees and ants fit the definition of suicide? I realize that the OP stated above that he/she may not go along with bees and ants in the defintion (somebody else and I may actually sowehat agree...WOW), and thank you for the clarification, but the definition I cited above would indicate that they do commit suicide because apoptosis is also indicated.

And, I am still convinced that there is a distinct difference in between programmed cell death or losing your stinger or dying protecting the hive and an act of willfully ending your life because you are in severe pain with no end in sight or you believe that life just isn't worth living anymore.

 

Is intent really necessary or not in the act of suicide? Personally, I think so.

I'm even going to write the editors of Websters a note about this and their definition.

 

Does it matter or not that one difference is that a drone bee that commits this form of "suicide" is not removing itself from the gene pool? From an evolutionary sense, there is no reward or punishment here for self preservation (unless of course the hive is left less well defended if a HUGE number of drones die).

 

 

Nothing, so long as we all do it together.

 

I refuse to be a member of that collective.

[Paralith]

Is intent really necessary or not in the act of suicide? Personally, I think so.

I'm even going to write the editors of Websters a note about this and their definition.

 

It doesn't help that the word is used inconsistently in different contexts. As far as human culture, and even human law goes, words like suicide and homicide and genocide indicate a purposeful and primary intent to kill. Otherwise we call it things like accidental death, manslaughter, self defense, etc. So, when a bee divebombs an enemy many times its size, with skin that will pull out its stinger, is the bee's primary intent to cause its own death, or is its primary intent to drive the enemy away from the hive? When an ant explodes itself to launch its sticky intestines on top of its enemies in order to ensare them, is its primary purpose to die, or is its primary purpose to protect the colony from attackers? The answers are quite obvious, I think, yet these acts are still often called suicide. Even human "suicide" bombers - are they just trying to die, or are they trying to maximally hurt their enemy?

[Mr Skeptic]

I think apoptosis would count as suicide by all definitions because the cell clearly has the intent to kill itself. Part of the cell's "design" includes the ability to self-destruct, which is about as much intent as a single-celled organism could have.

 

I think we have shown sufficient examples that some animals do indeed sacrifice themselves for a greater good. The extent to which they "know" that they are committing suicide is debatable, especially for insects, but I suspect that in higher animals there will be a few examples where the animals do know what they are doing.

 

Perhaps we can narrow down the question to "self-serving" suicide. That is, do other animals commit suicide when such act would be neutral or detrimental to others? This is much less likely to be found as there would be significant evolutionary pressure against it. Maybe we're the only ones who do that.

[DrDNA]

I think apoptosis would count as suicide by all definitions because the cell clearly has the intent to kill itself. Part of the cell's "design" includes the ability to self-destruct, which is about as much intent as a single-celled organism could have.

 

I think we have shown sufficient examples that some animals do indeed sacrifice themselves for a greater good. The extent to which they "know" that they are committing suicide is debatable, especially for insects, but I suspect that in higher animals there will be a few examples where the animals do know what they are doing.

 

Perhaps we can narrow down the question to "self-serving" suicide. That is, do other animals commit suicide when such act would be neutral or detrimental to others? This is much less likely to be found as there would be significant evolutionary pressure against it. Maybe we're the only ones who do that.

 

To ME, one key word here would be choice. Certainly, a cell undergoing apoptosis has no choice in the matter.

Another key word would be intent. To my knowledge, the bee does not intend to kill itself, death is simply an indirect consequence of another action taken on behalf of the betterment of the collective.

On the other hand, someone that takes their life willing made a choice and had intent.

[Paralith]

To ME, one key word here would be choice. Certainly, a cell undergoing apoptosis has no choice in the matter.

Another key word would be intent. To my knowledge, the bee does not intend to kill itself, death is simply an indirect consequence of another action taken on behalf of the betterment of the collective.

On the other hand, someone that takes their life willing made a choice and had intent.

 

I think that's an excellent addition. In that sense, not only do ants and bees not primarily intend to kill themselves (but primarily intend to defend their kin), but they probably have little personal choice in the matter. If you are a soldier drone, that is probably what you are hardwired to do - similar to the cell that is programmed to commit apoptosis under certain conditions.

 

This does, however, begin to lead us toward the quagmire of choice and free will, and ultimately self consciousness. But it still keeps in line with the previous examples, as elephants and dolphins are the two non-human animals thought to potentially have a human-like form of self consciousness.

[iNow]

Also, aren't most human suicides calls for attention as opposed to desires to end one's life?

[Mr Skeptic]

To ME, one key word here would be choice. Certainly, a cell undergoing apoptosis has no choice in the matter.

Another key word would be intent.

 

I disagree. A cell committing apoptosis has already made its choice and intent, in as much as it can have such, quite clear when it long ago chose to intentionally disassemble itself under certain circumstances (ie, got the trigger mechanism and the disassembly instructions). You can't require a cell to be sentient; in as much as it has a choice and intention, it is to commit apoptosis under certain circumstances.

 

To my knowledge, the bee does not intend to kill itself, death is simply an indirect consequence of another action taken on behalf of the betterment of the collective.

On the other hand, someone that takes their life willing made a choice and had intent.

 

I don't think that a bee intends to kill itself, and in this case it is an indirect consequence rather than a design, so I could agree with this part.

 

Also, aren't most human suicides calls for attention as opposed to desires to end one's life?

 

Most failed suicide attempts are calls for help/attention. A decent portion of these calls for attention actually do result in death, and I think these outnumber the resolute suicides. Women much more so than men use a suicide attempt as a call for attention. However, use of firearms, especially shotguns, or jumping off a very tall building are definitely not calls for attention.

[iNow]

However, use of firearms, especially shotguns, or jumping off a very tall building are definitely not calls for attention.

I agree with your tone, but disagree with your point. Most suicides are calls for attention.

 

Those that are not... those that are... how do I say this... giving up because the pain is too much... I think are no different than non-human suicides. Those suicides are not different than others found in the animal kingdom.

 

Ow... it hurts... I want it to stop... That's not just a human characteristic... that's a characteristic of life.

[DrDNA]

Those that are not... those that are... how do I say this... giving up because the pain is too much... I think are no different than non-human suicides. Those suicides are not different than others found in the animal kingdom.

 

Ow... it hurts... I want it to stop... That's not just a human characteristic... that's a characteristic of life.

 

 

True.

But I would venture to guess that most other animals (besides humans) probably do not draw positive correlations between pain and life or lack of pain and death.

[iNow]

True.

But I would venture to guess that most other animals (besides humans) probably do not draw positive correlations between pain and life or lack of pain and death.

 

Why not?

[DrDNA]

Why not?

 

1. I recuse myself on the basis of my use of the terms "venture to guess" and "probably".

2. Rather than amuse everyone with a feeble attempt by me to prove a negative, I was kinda hoping that you could tell us what evidence suggests that they can.

[iNow]

When you poke them, they move out of the way.

[DrDNA]

When you poke them, they move out of the way.

 

 

 

 

Shows abstract thought and predictions relating pain with life and lack of pain with death how?

 

Lets see.

poke

 

move out of the way

 

May show some cause and effect relationship between a poke and movement.

And even with that, I might add that if you poke a dog that is in severe pain, it will generally do nothing but lie there.

[iNow]

That's not fair. You edited your previous post after I made mine. What had you said originally?