Animal Behavior: suicide

[thedarkshade]

Is this thread going in this direction...

[Paralith]

Is this thread going in this direction...

 

I knew it would. I already said as much previously.

 

I will concede to Dr. DNA that it depends on how exactly we're defining the word choice, and if we're restricting it to conscious choice.

 

INow, there is a difference between simply giving up because you've lost all exterior motivation to go on and finding yourself a 20 story building, getting to the top, and throwing yourself off. Most animals are probably capable of the former. Captive animals, unable to roam a broad range as their instincts tell them to, unable to interact with other animals as their instincts tell them to, unable to feed or breed or do anything in the way that they would normally devote all their energies to - then yes, they may just sit down and do nothing, because they have absolutely no natural stimulation, and eventually die. (Which is why enrichment is so important for zoo animals.) Mortally sick or wounded animals are just too weak or incapacitated to do much of anything but lie there. But you don't see them trying to drag themselves towards the nearest cliff. In these situations, non-human animals (with the possible exceptions already discussed) won't get up and look around for ways to die like we do.

[DrDNA]

That's not fair. You edited your previous post after I made mine. What had you said originally?

 

I had the 2 statements combined into one phrase so I separated them and added just a few works to make my point more clear. There was no malice intent. You replied VERY quickly as I was editing it.

[thedarkshade]

Certain species of ants can produce (or command) members of the colony that specifically have the purpose of committing suicide; they blow themselves up to defend their colony. So to answer the original OP, is yes, non human species can commit suicide. Maybe not for the same reasons, but it fits the definition.

Fascinating!

 

It is interesting how other organisms work. Bees for example, I think they are a miracle in itself! The way that the colony is organized is absolutely amazing. Then the cells that have the hexagonal form, that's not a coincidence because that form is the best to cover maximal space.

 

Then termites, the blind architects! They build "homes" feets high, with even conditioning holes, and all that with their blindness!

 

It's fascinating!

[iNow]

INow, there is a difference between simply giving up because you've lost all exterior motivation to go on and finding yourself a 20 story building, getting to the top, and throwing yourself off. Most animals are probably capable of the former. Captive animals, unable to roam a broad range as their instincts tell them to, unable to interact with other animals as their instincts tell them to, unable to feed or breed or do anything in the way that they would normally devote all their energies to - then yes, they may just sit down and do nothing, because they have absolutely no natural stimulation, and eventually die. (Which is why enrichment is so important for zoo animals.) Mortally sick or wounded animals are just too weak or incapacitated to do much of anything but lie there. But you don't see them trying to drag themselves towards the nearest cliff. In these situations, non-human animals (with the possible exceptions already discussed) won't get up and look around for ways to die like we do.

 

That's a very good point, and I agree. I think the parts I have been challenging is that everyone seems to be working off of personal definitions of suicide, and there was little to no consensus, hence this conversation not making much progress. It's fine if we choose a very specific definition of suicide, but let's agree on that up front... as opposed to later invoking the conscious decision, or the "they took extra action to cease their life," or they did so to defend the colony... etc... and all disagreeing due to the lack of semantic alignment.

 

Cheers.

[Reaper]

I had orginally thought that this thread was about which animals could commit suicide, not which animals/creatures do it like humans do...

[thedarkshade]

I had orginally thought that this thread was about which animals could commit suicide, not which animals/creatures do it like humans do...

A little more info will not kill anyone!

[iNow]

I had orginally thought that this thread was about which animals could commit suicide, not which animals/creatures do it like humans do...

 

Likewise... which is why my posts have been of the tone they were. Let's ask the person who opened this thread what THEY intended.

 

Mag - A little help here?

[bombus]

Fascinating!

 

It is interesting how other organisms work. Bees for example, I think they are a miracle in itself! The way that the colony is organized is absolutely amazing. Then the cells that have the hexagonal form, that's not a coincidence because that form is the best to cover maximal space.

 

Then termites, the blind architects! They build "homes" feets high, with even conditioning holes, and all that with their blindness!

 

It's fascinating!

 

Indeed! The natural world is totally amazing. Just a shame we're killing it all off!

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html

[thedarkshade]

Indeed! The natural world is totally amazing. Just a shame we're killing it all off!

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html

And the worst is that it seems there is no way to stop this:doh: !

[iNow]

And the worst is that it seems there is no way to stop this:doh: !

 

That is simply not true. Once you get past that attitude, you will find ways, small and large, to make things better. Don't be defeatist.

 

 

However, I'm not sure how this relates to suicide in life labelled non-human.

[thedarkshade]

There needs to be created a global consciousness iNow so everyone can really know that particular species of animals are in risk of extinction, and this is quite hard to be achieved!

[iNow]

There needs to be created a global consciousness iNow so everyone can really know that particular species of animals are in risk of extinction, and this is quite hard to be achieved!

And I agree... It's just that this thread was opened to discuss suicide, not extinction. I heartily welcome a new thread to discuss the above need for global consciousness and awarness and avoidance of extinction if you'd like to open it.

[CDarwin]

I just thought I would note, completely off topic to the current stream of discussion, that legal precedent in the State of Tennessee holds that a horse can commit suicide. In Lyons v. Stills, described by Justice Wilkes as "the case of a Texas pony that commited suicide," the Tennessee State Supreme Court ruled that a farmer who bought a pony from a Texas breeder was was released from his contract (and thus did not have to pay) when the pony strangled itself with a rope used to tie to a post the night it arrived. It's quite true.

[thedarkshade]

Oh come on Darwin, maybe it was an accident! After all, you might have picked a smarter animal, but a horse man, I find it hard to believe!

[Paralith]

Oh come on Darwin, maybe it was an accident! After all, you might have picked a smarter animal, but a horse man, I find it hard to believe!

 

It caused it's own death. What's so hard to believe about that? That doesn't say anything about why it did so. It may not have realized what it was doing, maybe it was scared or hungry or stupid enough to get tangled up in the rope and just kept pulling on it to the point that it died. That doesn't mean it was thinking, "Man, this sucks. Well, I got this rope around my neck already, I'll just choke myself to death!"

[thedarkshade]

But Darwin said "the pony that committed suicide"... you don't commite suicide if you're not conscious that you are doing that... that's called accident.

[Paralith]

But Darwin said "the pony that committed suicide"... you don't commite suicide if you're not conscious that you are doing that... that's called accident.

 

umm...isn't that what we've been debating this whole time? Exactly what our working definition of "suicide" is? Clearly, different people have different meanings in mind when they use the word.

[CDarwin]

But Darwin said "the pony that committed suicide"... you don't commite suicide if you're not conscious that you are doing that... that's called accident.

 

I didn't say that, the opinion by Justice Wilkes did.

[Mr Skeptic]

But Darwin said "the pony that committed suicide"... you don't commite suicide if you're not conscious that you are doing that... that's called accident.

 

Darwin said that the legal precedent is that the pony committed suicide. This means that, according to the courts of the United States, ponies can commit suicide.

[Mag]

Likewise... which is why my posts have been of the tone they were. Let's ask the person who opened this thread what THEY intended.

 

Mag - A little help here?

 

Hello!

sorry for the lag.

 

I was mainly wondering if there were any other animals that could kill them selves knowingly (not being told to or anything).

but as the Darkshade said, extra info never hurt

[DrDNA]

Darwin said that the legal precedent is that the pony committed suicide. This means that, according to the courts of the United States, ponies can commit suicide.

 

Lawyers and judges make rotten scientists, don't they?

[Glider]

I don't think animals commit suicide. I think for something to be able to commit suicide, that thing requires a) Awareness of self as an entity separate and distict from other members of the species and b) An understanding of mortality.

 

I think for the act that results in the death of an individual to be classed as suicide there needs to be a) choice and b) the primary intent to end one's own life.

 

Without these, although the actions of an animal may lead to the death of the animal, I don't think it can be classified as suicide.

[iNow]

I think for something to be able to commit suicide, that thing requires a) Awareness of self as an entity separate and distict from other members of the species and b) An understanding of mortality.

 

I think for the act that results in the death of an individual to be classed as suicide there needs to be a) choice and b) the primary intent to end one's own life.

 

Without these, although the actions of an animal may lead to the death of the animal, I don't think it can be classified as suicide.

 

I think the question becomes, how does the usage of the term "suicide" in this thread differ in any way from the "active choice of an organism to no longer take steps to sustain itself?" Does it?

 

 

Surely if they had guns and thumbs they wouldn't need to lay around starving themselves.

[Glider]

I think the question becomes, how does the usage of the term "suicide" in this thread differ in any way from the "active choice of an organism to no longer take steps to sustain itself?" Does it?

I think you're right as far as a solid definition of terms of reference is needed in any debate, but I don't know of any such cases.

 

The elephant example above (old elephants starving themselves) is a bit warped. Old elephants still try to eat, but they can't eat efficiently enough to sustain themselves. The pony example is just an example of an accident (caused by the owners). I worked with horses for years and I know they have little understanding of ropes and knots, so the responsibility was mine to ensure they couldn't get hung up, not theirs.

 

To the best of my knowledge, any animal in the wild will always take steps to sustain itself, if it can. If there is a case in which an animal ceased taking steps to sustain itself, the question becomes "is the animal aware of the relationship between (say), feeding behaviour and survival?"

 

 

Surely if they had guns and thumbs they wouldn't need to lay around starving themselves.

Hehehe...guns 'n thumbs..I like it But even posessing guns 'n thumbs, if the animal is unaware of itself as an individual, and unaware of the concept of mortality then what would it do with the gun? Where would it point it and why?