Animal Behavior: suicide

[iNow]

Yeah... guns 'n thumbs sounded better rhetorically than some suggestion about electric toasters and bathtubs.

 

I suppose a bigger point I have been trying to make is this. When someone suggests that an animal is "unaware of itself" and that it is "unaware of the concept of mortality," this is nothing more than unsupported conjecture. I advise we refrain from using an unsupported conjecture as one of our central axioms in later arguments.

 

If someone can give me a well formed empirical set of data which removes all doubt about an animals awareness and concepts of self (preferably a study where these concepts are not defined in some ad hoc manner serving only to give humans some special "position"), I'd love to see it and I will accept your argument if the data supports it.

 

However, until that happens, the assumption that animals are not aware of themselves and are not aware of the concept of mortality has the same empirical merit as the suggestion that animals prefer Wednesdays over Mondays.

[Glider]

I suppose a bigger point I have been trying to make is this. When someone suggests that an animal is "unaware of itself" and that it is "unaware of the concept of mortality," this is nothing more than unsupported conjecture. I advise we refrain from using an unsupported conjecture as one of our central axioms in later arguments.

It's not so much unsupported conjecture as the null position.

 

If someone can give me a well formed empirical set of data which removes all doubt about an animals awareness and concepts of self (preferably a study where these concepts are not defined in some ad hoc manner serving only to give humans some special "position"), I'd love to see it and I will accept your argument if the data supports it.

I would love to see such data too. However, in the absence of such evidence, there is no reason to assume that animals are self-aware or have a grasp of the concept of mortality. That would be unsupported conjecture.

 

However, until that happens, the assumption that animals are not aware of themselves and are not aware of the concept of mortality has the same empirical merit as the suggestion that animals prefer Wednesdays over Mondays.

Not really. The suggestion that animals prefer Wednesdays over Mondays only provides a choice between two positive assertions, neither of which has any supporting evidence and so both are unsupported conjecture.

 

A more accurate example would be: Animals prefer a particular day of the week (positive assertion) Vs Animals have no preference for a particular day of the week (null position). In the absence of evidence refuting it, the null position stands.

 

So, when it comes to the question of whether animals commit suicide, the assumption that animals are self-aware and have a grasp of the concept of mortality based on the absence of evidence showing that they’re not self-aware and don’t understand mortality is a negative proof fallacy.

 

Until there is some evidence that animals (other than certain primates and whales) are self aware and understand the concept of mortality, the term ‘suicide’ is not applicable to animals.

[iNow]

I would love to see such data too. However, in the absence of such evidence, there is no reason to assume that animals are self-aware or have a grasp of the concept of mortality.

 

This speaks to the root of my approach to this issue. There's no reason to assume that one position is better... not yet anyway. I concede that my point suggesting humans are not somehow special in this regard is just an opinion. I just hope to show that a suggestion that humans are the only non-plants life forms on the planet earth to commit suicide is an opinion as well... an opinion which (in my mind) offers nothing to the debate except a way to pad one's ego and personal sense of status in the world.

[Glider]

I think ego padding and status reinforcement are only issues if one considers the human condition to be better (i.e. a value judgement) rather than just different (i.e. an observation).

 

All extant species have evolved differently to fit their niche sucessfully. As with all other species, humans have evolved in their own unique way which, for some reason in this case, has resulted in each individual becoming aware of themselves as an entity separate and distinct from the rest of their specie, and also an understanding of mortality; the impermenance of life and an understanding of death; of other members of their group and their own.

 

The reasons for this are unclear, but it is how it is. It's just an observation and nothing about it makes humans any better or worse than any other species, just different.

 

However, I do think the differences need to be taken into account when attampting to apply human constructs to other species. Suicide (the concept), morals, ethics etc. are all human constructs and don't apply to other species.

 

Dolphins force sex on females, chimpanzees kill other chimpanzees. male mountain gorillas will kill infant mountain gorillas when taking over a group. These acts evoke strong reaction and moral judgment in many humans, but rape, murder and infanticide, and the moral judgment they evoke, are human constructs and not applicable to other species that have evolved in ways different to humans because it's what works for those species.

 

It's in this vein that I don't think the concept of suicide is applicable to other species. I think it is attempting to apply human constructs to other species that is a sign of human vanity.

[Severian]

It's a bit surprising really. One would imagine that commiting suicide once past reproductive age would actually be evolutionarily advantageous.

[Paralith]

It's a bit surprising really. One would imagine that commiting suicide once past reproductive age would actually be evolutionarily advantageous.

 

Not necessarily - not if you can continue to aid your offspring even after you yourself can have no more. You can help them have more.

[iNow]

Exactly what Paralith said. Think of grandparents providing care to the children while the parents hunt and gathered.

 

Or, in modern times, think of the Bush family where the grandparents and parents social connections and networks benefit the offspring (like the Bush twins...)

[Pangloss]

It's an interesting notion. If you have grandparents around, your children are more likely to produce children -- something along those lines. Seems plausible.

[Severian]

It's an interesting notion. If you have grandparents around, your children are more likely to produce children -- something along those lines. Seems plausible.

 

I agree, it seems plausible. But also a bit odd that this would be true for all species other than humans. After all, many many species have parents who do not interact with their offspring.

[Paralith]

I agree, it seems plausible. But also a bit odd that this would be true for all species other than humans. After all, many many species have parents who do not interact with their offspring.

 

The individuals of most species die long before they get physically too old to breed - and not typically by suicide, either. Predation, starvation, accident, disease, killed by a rival, etc.

[Vexer]

So Mag, 'yes' only humans do suicide in the sense that you mean.

 

Isn't that interesting.

[thedarkshade]

Isn't that interesting.

No, that's sad:-(

[crazziekid82]

im not 100% sure but didn't the Dodo bird committed suicide after mating...LOL well in saying that the male committed suicide. the female do not.