Arab-Israeli Conflict

[Physia]

What do you think about this conflict that has been going on since the re-establishment of the State of Israel?

Who is responsible for this conflict to start in the first place?

Why did all the Arab countries sign an undercover peace treaty with Israel, while Syria and Lebanon hasn't? Noting that Syria is already in failing peace talks with Israel and in Lebanon, Hizballah is the main opposer for a peace treaty between the two neighboring countries as it is under Syrian control and Iranian direct support.

Palestine; legitimate to be a state or not? What is your reasoning? I have a small story that I'd like to tell you as we go through.

Who is right and who is wrong? What are your reasons, evidences, opinions, and whatnot?

Hizballah in Lebanon; after the United Nations Security Council issued resolutions 1595 and 1701 which call to disarm all militias in Lebanon (particularly Hizballah) and the implementation of an international tribunal (which was hardly implemented) to try the criminals who are responsible for the assassination of former PM Rafiq Hariri and the related assassinations, and after the Cedar Revolution, the Sanioura government has been calling for the disarmament of Hizballah and the end of Syrian ongoing hegemony over Lebanon (despite the withdrawal of all their army). What do you think about these steps, and how do you think is the best way to help, secure such calls, and enforce them? And what, in your opinion, do you think the right action that the Lebanese government and the March 14 coalition (pro-government, pro-west, pro-U.S., and pro-France) should take against the Hizballah-led Syrio-Irano opposition?

 

Comments, opinions?

[iNow]

You asked too many questions for me to respond to each. Let me summarize my take.

 

 

Each are human.

Each have been taught their hate, and can easily forget it.

 

Assigning fault solves no problems.

 

 

When each realize that they all were born of Earth, and that their parents religion is no reason to continue killing, they will find a way to share their lives in harmony.

 

 

Arab and israeli children play together without a problem, and they are leading by example. The adults simply must pay more attention to that aspect of their children's lives and more consciously incorporate it into their own.

[Pangloss]

I agree with the above.

[Saryctos]

Each have been taught their hate, and can easily forget it.

 

I'm sure the constant missle attacks won't let the Israelies forget that too easily.

[Pangloss]

Two wrongs don't make a right. That's a little axiom the middle east has never quite learned. Too busy with "an eye for an eye", I suppose. But make no mistake about it, the Palestinians must ALSO let go of their anger while under direct assault. There are absolutely two sides to this story, and frankly there always have been.

 

I don't mean to trivialize, and I realize it's very easy to critisize from to far away and so safe a region as I'm in. But there's no denying the fact that the basic logic of the middle east conflict is about as screwed up as it gets, with plenty of blame to go around.

[CDarwin]

In retrospect, perhaps putting Israel there was a bad idea. It's not as though we can dismantle the country and move it to Madagascar now, though.

[Realitycheck]

I don't see what's so special about it. I would have left a long time ago and not looked back.

[Sisyphus]

In retrospect, perhaps putting Israel there was a bad idea. It's not as though we can dismantle the country and move it to Madagascar now, though.

 

I think maybe the people of Madagascar might be upset by that, anyway. People anywhere are going to resent being "colonized." Really the only solution is to pack up and head to Antarctica.

[Physia]

What do you think about this conflict that has been going on since the re-establishment of the State of Israel?

 

Let my response persuade to you what I think about this conflict.

 

Who is responsible for this conflict to start in the first place?

 

The Arabs.

The Palestinians' date=' who claim their lands were stolen, were a victim of filthy Arab owners, who sold these lands to the Israelis after Israel was re-established under the British mandate over Palestine. Using Arabism propaganda, this truth was totally covered. That's when the actual conflict started, and how I reason it as Arabs are the responsible.

 

Why did all the Arab countries sign an undercover peace treaty with Israel, while Syria and Lebanon hasn't? Noting that Syria is already in failing peace talks with Israel and in Lebanon, Hizballah is the main opposer for a peace treaty between the two neighboring countries as it is under Syrian control and Iranian direct support.

 

Starting with Saudi Arabia, they very well knew that a constant conflict will lead to nowhere. Instead, all Arab countries except Lebanon and Syria, improved all ties with Israel. Syria, on the other hand, is just negotiating with Israel under the table. Nothing is being accomplished, and Syria never presents its land as a place for combat or battleships. Nothing has happened in Golan since it's abduction by the Israelis.

Hizballah in Lebanon is a very different story. Their main objective is to liberate Jerusalem, and Islamzie Lebanon. They are under direct Syrian and Iranian sponsorship, which do not recognize the State of Israel. In Lebanon, not everybody supports Hizballah. In fact, less than 50% of the population supports it, composed of mainly Shiites. Having said that, I will move on to say that some Lebanese support a peace treaty between Israel and Lebanon, with open borders, and diplomatic ties between the two countries. There is one block however, Hizballah to start with, and Syrian hegemony that is composed of other puppets in Lebanon and the Palestinian refugee camps. Once this block is removed, I am 99% certain a peace-treaty will be on the way. The question is; how do we remove Hizballah?

 

Palestine; legitimate to be a state or not? What is your reasoning? I have a small story that I'd like to tell you as we go through.

 

Well' date=' I will start by my story.

The night before Christmas eve, I was at a friend's house having a drink and he has invited some of his friends over as well. Amongst them was a Palestinian, so we opened a discussion about middle eastern politics and whatnot. I came upon the Palestinian (sorry I can't say any names) with the following question: If Israel gave you all of its land, keeping 1 km2, and gave you all of your prisoners and whatever you ask for; would you, if you had the chance, go in there and slaughter every single Israeli? His reply was: Yes, Yes. Of course I would. We were speaking in Arabic, just to make it clear.

 

Reviewing the fights happening between the Palestinians (Hamas and Fatah), I would say that Palestine should not be a legitimate state. They are fighting each other and they refuse to accept the State of Israel. By that, they refuse to accept a state. At least, Hamas does, but if you can't control one side; nothing is guaranteed.

Taking that and my little story; no, Palestine shall never be a state, and it never was. The Palestinian cause was an illusion proposed by Arab leaders and used as a reason to fight Israel. I believe a Saudi sheikh confessed on Iraqi tv about the Palestinian cause.

 

Who is right and who is wrong? What are your reasons, evidences, opinions, and whatnot?

 

There is no right or wrong in such issues.

There is respect my presence and claim it, and we live in peace. Or there is, do not recognize me and we will fight till death. That's how I see it.

 

Hizballah in Lebanon; after the United Nations Security Council issued resolutions 1595 and 1701 which call to disarm all militias in Lebanon (particularly Hizballah) and the implementation of an international tribunal (which was hardly implemented) to try the criminals who are responsible for the assassination of former PM Rafiq Hariri and the related assassinations' date=' and after the Cedar Revolution, the Sanioura government has been calling for the disarmament of Hizballah and the end of Syrian ongoing hegemony over Lebanon (despite the withdrawal of all their army). What do you think about these steps, and how do you think is the best way to help, secure such calls, and enforce them? And what, in your opinion, do you think the right action that the Lebanese government and the March 14 coalition (pro-government, pro-west, pro-U.S., and pro-France) should take against the Hizballah-led Syrio-Irano opposition?[/quote']

 

Hizballah and all of the pro-Syria puppets are responsible for the assassinations of the freedom-fighting politicians of Lebanon. Each of the assassinated politicians opposed Syria and its hegemony over the country.

The best way to support the internal situation from the outside is to support the Lebanese government (as the American and French governments are doing). Another way is to strengthen the army, after knowing where the weapons are going to.

I think the steps March 14 are taking are excellent and patriotic. However, they have been on the defensive too much and need to take the offensive as fast as possible. They need to elect a president by 50+1 and call for a foreign country to come in and defend the president and governmental institutions avoiding a very possible and likely coup d'etat launched by Hizballah. That's the only way to liberate the country from all of the puppets whose blood has been soaked with treason.

 

Comments' date=' opinions?[/quote']

 

Watch this small video: http://www.sendspace.com/file/vgaeb9

Ignore the Arabic speaking in it, and see the pictures. That's who the Palestinians are, and these are their atrocities. This is what the Palestinians, the Syrians, and the Arabists did in Lebanon in order to fight Israel.

 

The person speaking is Bachir Gemayel. Do a research about him, if you want.

 

As Bachir Gemayel said, "We've been attacked for being Christians, but we fought as Lebanese."

 

In retrospect, perhaps putting Israel there was a bad idea. It's not as though we can dismantle the country and move it to Madagascar now, though.

 

Israel was re-established. It has been there for over 3,000 years.

[ParanoiA]

Arab and israeli children play together without a problem, and they are leading by example. The adults simply must pay more attention to that aspect of their children's lives and more consciously incorporate it into their own.

 

Kids are great for refreshing you on the basics of humanity.

[Pangloss]

I don't see what's so special about it. I would have left a long time ago and not looked back.

 

"Do you mean to tell me, Katie Scarlett O'Hara, that Tara, that land doesn't mean anything to you? Why, land is the only thing in the world worth workin' for, worth fightin' for, worth dyin' for, because it's the only thing that lasts. "

[Mr Skeptic]

"Do you mean to tell me, Katie Scarlett O'Hara, that Tara, that land doesn't mean anything to you? Why, land is the only thing in the world worth workin' for, worth fightin' for, worth dyin' for, because it's the only thing that lasts. "

 

Unless it erodes or gets abused.

[Realitycheck]

The Palestinians, who claim their lands were stolen, were a victim of filthy Arab owners, who sold these lands to the Israelis after Israel was re-established under the British mandate over Palestine. Using Arabism propaganda, this truth was totally covered. That's when the actual conflict started, and how I reason it as Arabs are the responsible.

 

For some reason, I thought that their lands were stolen because of U.N. mandate. I get the feeling that its all about details, even though it was mandated by the U.N. Frankly, I think I lost track of rightful ownership around 8,700 BC., back when some warlord took over Jericho.

 

The only thing I see Promised about it is that it is the source of a lot of endless pain ... war, crucifixions, memories. What is so Promised about that? What is there to be proud about a place that glorifies war? Move on, that's what I say.

 

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, I cannot see why people there, in general, have such a hard time setting aside their vengeance. Of course, it is so obvious, the Palestinians got shafted. It's the U.N.'s fault, if you ask me. 2 wrongs don't make a right, but evicting a nation without reparations because of overall Islamic anti-semitism is a bit overboard, since the actual blood is on Hitler's hands. Stalemate. Stupid foreign policy on the part of the U.N. Israel should be more amenable. Hamas should be starved to death, which no one will allow. Nobody ever gets a clue, same old story.

[ParanoiA]

Well you have to admit, it's actually a quite long and complicated story. That's why I find it hard to have an opinion on the matter. I know that my gut says that establishing a state of a small few inside a region of a big many who all want to kill those few doesn't sound like a smart idea. (Actually, I thought surrounding your enemy was a tactical advantage, and here we dropped them right in the middle..surrounded)

 

Of course, it didn't work like that. But at what point do you stop trying to put a square block through a round hole? Yeah, it would be better for them to live together in peace, but maybe they need to live apart in peace first.

 

Israeli insistance on claiming their holy land, outnumbered albeit not outgunned, seems fundamentally flawed, at least on the surface. Would we see this type of group choice/behavior without the religious element? It certainly doesn't seem like a decision Homo Erectus would make.

[Physia]

Jerusalem is the righteous home of the Jews, which is why Zionism was created as a movement to have all Jews return back to where they belong. As I have said before, Israel was there thousand of years ago, and it was re-established by the end of World War II.

 

Arabism, which is the nationalistic idea to unite all of the middle eastern Arab nations under one Arabic army. This idea blurred the real image of "Zionism" and turned it into a killing movement, where in fact, it is not. By making that image blurry, they proceeded to create something they referred to as the "Palestinian cause" which is an illusion that was fabricated to fight Israel."

 

If they were really fighting 'Zionists,' then why do they commit crimes against innocent Israeli citizens? All of the crap they say on tv is just a cover for their anti-Semitism and inability to co-exist with another religion in the region - which is also why the Christian presence in Lebanon went from 65% of the population by the early '60s to less than 32% today. That is due to immigration of Christians to various parts of the world, which include north America, south America, Caribbean, Europe, and Australia. Very little percentage to Asia and the Arab world.

[Pangloss]

And how's that working out so far?

 

There are no legitimate objective grounds by which you can claim that "Jerusalem is the righteous home of the Jews". You can only express your opinion, which we respect here. You'll completely fail if your goal is to establish this as an obective truth. Be advised; the logic just isn't there.

 

1) You have no idea who the original inhabitants of that land were.

2) Just as it's wrong to categorize all Jews as "zionists", it's equally wrong to decry the Palestinian cause as a mere anti-Jewish plot.

3) It's just land. Dirt. We get that it's important to you, but to most people that is not deemed to be as important as human life, and your mystical connection to it is really not anybody's problem but yours.

4) There will be a Palestinian state. Every internationally-supported path to peace includes it. Get used to the idea.

[PhDP]

Jerusalem is the righteous home of the Jews

 

Blut und Boden, eh ?

[DrDNA]

Jerusalem is the righteous home of the Jews, which is why Zionism was created as a movement to have all Jews return back to where they belong. As I have said before, Israel was there thousand of years ago, and it was re-established by the end of World War II.

 

"Rightous" how? Other than from a biblical perspective.....

 

"Where they belong"....how so?

 

Have you ever made a serious attempt to look at this from the outside in or from the "other" side's point of view?

[Physia]

Blut und Boden, eh ?

 

כן, באופן מוחלט

 

-------------------------------------------------

I understand that most of you do not like to involve religion in the political crisis that is happening in the middle east, but to get your facts straight for you; it is all about religion.

Any Islamist movement that has risen up had one main goal, no matter which sect it was; and that goal is to liberate Jerusalem, as they liked to refer to it, from Zionists (which I repeat, is a movement to put Jews in their righteous home).

 

DrDNA, I do not need to look at it from the other perspective, from the same perspective that had tried to persecute me for what I believe in multiple of times. They refused to co-exist, and all the chances that has been given to them; well, it is their problem. The land belongs to Israel, whose capital is Jerusalem, and whose inhabitants are Jews (by origin, which is how the land righteously belongs to them).

[Pangloss]

I understand that most of you do not like to involve religion in the political crisis that is happening in the middle east, but to get your facts straight for you; it is all about religion.

 

Any Islamist movement that has risen up had one main goal, no matter which sect it was; and that goal is to liberate Jerusalem, as they liked to refer to it, from Zionists (which I repeat, is a movement to put Jews in their righteous home).

 

Again, how's that working out so far?

 

And perhaps more to the point, arguments in favor of freedom and peace have universal appeal, but arguments in favor of helping one specific religious sect achieve its mystical nirvana at the expense of another one, not so much. I get that you fear they all want to wipe you out, but what you want me to approve doesn't seem a whole lot more appealing.

[bombus]

The Zionist Jews are to blame. Palestine belonged to the Palestinians (many of whom had descended from the original Jews anyway having converted to Islam many centuries ago). They have had their country stolen from them. There will be no peace until:

 

1. All the Palestinians are dead

2. All the Zionist Jews are dead (which means everybody dies due to the Samson Option)

3. The current state of Israel is dismantled and reborn as a single country including the Palestinian lands so Jews and Palestinians can live in peace in a secular state where everyone has equal rights.

 

Unfortunately, I think the first two are the most likely.

 

Ho hum...

 

The land belongs to Israel, whose capital is Jerusalem, and whose inhabitants are Jews (by origin, which is how the land righteously belongs to them).

 

Oh yeah? Well who was there before the Jews? By that reckoning the Brits should still rule the USA! In fact the North American Indians should rule the USA! Maybe you'd be happy to hand over power and privalege to the few that remain?

[DrDNA]

כן, באופן DrDNA, I do not need to look at it from the other perspective, from the same perspective that had tried to persecute me for what I believe in multiple of times. They refused to co-exist, and all the chances that has been given to them; well, it is their problem. The land belongs to Israel, whose capital is Jerusalem, and whose inhabitants are Jews (by origin, which is how the land righteously belongs to them).

 

Actually, in the Jewish Torah and Judges 1 and Numbers 33 of the Christian Bible, it is clearly stated that the Jews smote the Canaanites, Hitites, Emorites, Hivites, Jebusites, Girgashites, and Prizites (often collectively called Canaanites) and drove them off of the land called Israel.

 

So, if your are going to base your argument on who was there first, the Bible and Torah as historical documents indicate that it was not the Jews.

 

PS: Dear moderators. I'm absolutely not trying to take a stand one way or the other based on theology. Just to clear up the historical facts.

[Sisyphus]

Obviously, Italian-Americans are the rightful rulers of Europe, North Africa, and most of the Middle East, inasmuch as they are descendants of the Roman people, whose dominion is blessed by Jupiter.

 

(Sounds kind of ridiculous, doesn't it?)

[iNow]

I'd like to do plate tectonic study and show how it's not even the same place anymore relative to the other continents, and how it's shifted several kilometers since the holy pieces of paper were sribbled upon all those years ago. Not to mention erosion and redistribution of land mass.

[Pangloss]

The Zionist Jews are to blame.

 

I don't see how blaming it all on Israelis is any more accurate (or helpful) than blaming it all on Palestinians.