school for crap

[ishmael]

The education system in the USA is regularly attacked for being second class, at best. Many reasons are given, most reflecting the particular bias of the observer - teacher unions bad, parents coddle kids, too much homework, too little homework, too many video games, etc. I heard someone say that we, as a society, don't really want to fix the system, because if we had truly educated citizens, who would buy all the crap? And we do buy a lot of crap in this country. Its a huge part of the economy. Is this a conspiracy of some sort? Are we all complicit? Or is it just the way we have evolved as a society, with now so much inertia in the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of this mountain of crap that we can't turn the damn thing around without a revolution or collapse?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Cultural inertia, I'd say. There's nobody trying hard enough to change everything -- people complain, sure, but nobody's trying to fix anything.

[Mr Skeptic]

This is one of the types of problems we get from the federal and state government having too much say in local things. Without such interference, the problem would solve itself.

[seven8s]

Ishmael

The crap that we buy feeds the world and has nothing to do with the failures of the educational system. In fact, now that I think of it perhaps it is the success of the system in some small way that feeds the world. Children are educated, and refuse to be denied. Is that a good thing? I would suggest that like all things it has it’s pros and cons.

 

There’s one perspective, which suggest that many more exist, each with their pros and cons. Who knows that black holes don’t exist for the purpose of vacuuming the trash we might send to outer space someday, separating the chafe from the grain? And until that day becomes necessary, scientist need to get on the ball, iow’s fix it.

 

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. What of your trash are you willing to give up?

 

How else do we feed the peoples of the world? Any suggestions?

 

Cap’n Refsmmat

Cultural inertia, I'd say. There's nobody trying hard enough to change everything -- people complain, sure, but nobody's trying to fix anything.

 

What do you think black holes are for? Does that give you something to think about?

 

 

 

Mr. Skeptic

This is one of the types of problems we get from the federal and state government having too much say in local things. Without such interference, the problem would solve itself.

 

The federal government has set a mandate for all children of the United States. That mandate, if that is what it is accurately called is thus; A free and appropriate education for all children. It is an excellent mandate, superb, superlative. In fact there are not enough positive words to describe it. Mandates take time, energy and money. They require faith, action, faith, action, faith, action...............before they reach the final destination. Some days it is hard on all peoples involved.

 

Mandates require participants, willing participants, believers. As such that includes the federal government at the local and state level. Equality?

[JohnB]

A free and appropriate education for all children.

And who defines what is "appropriate" for the children?

[iNow]

I don't think one needs education in order to learn to deficate. Infants seem quite capable of doing this as if it's some sort of innate ability.

 

 

Oops... there I go just reading the thread subject again.

[seven8s]

Oops... there I go just reading the thread subject again.

Yes, but that only because you know the answer.

 

And who defines what is "appropriate" for the children?

 

Gotta feed the lawyers. Can’t take it with ya, and we know how you love those transplants. See, the answers in the question? You answer yourself. Weird world.

[Phi for All]

Cultural inertia, I'd say. There's nobody trying hard enough to change everything -- people complain, sure, but nobody's trying to fix anything.

Time to drag my favorite peeve out. Roads.

 

The majority of the road-construction industry in the US is kept alive on planned obsolescence. Asphalt is put down and we're allowed to drive on it the same day. This insures that potholes will form, usually within the first year. When asphalt is cured for 90 days without the pounding of traffic on it, it sets up solid as a rock and probably wouldn't need repair for the next ten years. Can you imagine the money we would save by being patient and letting a little inconvenience take place? Oh, by the way, you also get to drive on glass-smooth roads all the time too, with less slow-down due to construction and repairs.

 

We'd rather pay higher taxes to pay workers we usually see leaning on shovels than have to take a detour for three months. It does seem like that much stupidity had to have been enhanced somehow. I've often speculated that some smart people might not want to have too many other smart people around; the uneducated ones are a bit easier to hoodwink.

 

"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool." -Wizard's First Rule

[seven8s]

Phi, you are a genius! Perhaps you can figure out how expansion and contraction can be avoided in asphalt, control the weather, how fuel erodes asphalt, how to prevent fuel from eroding asphalt, and what about the ice, or the s**** thrown down on it? When you figure all that out, and we prevent the contributing cause of pot holes, maybe you can figure out how to employ all those people who don’t have jobs. Which would include doctors lawyers, and Indian Chiefs?

 

Are you trying to hoodwink someone? Asphalt does not have the density of a rock. Maybe science can figure out how to accomplish that feat, pull a miracle out of it’s hat? You are not kidding me Phi, your pet peeve is that flag man.

[Phi for All]

Phi, you are a genius! Perhaps you can figure out how expansion and contraction can be avoided in asphalt, control the weather, how fuel erodes asphalt, how to prevent fuel from eroding asphalt, and what about the ice, or the s**** thrown down on it? When you figure all that out, and we prevent the contributing cause of pot holes, maybe you can figure out how to employ all those people who don’t have jobs. Which would include doctors lawyers, and Indian Chiefs?

This is usually the reaction from lazy, poorly educated Americans (no, not specifically you, seven8s). "It can't be done!" they rail. "You'll never figure out how to solve all the problems your idea would cause, so it's better to do nothing!" *sigh*

 

Fortunately, I don't have to figure out how to accomplish fully cured asphalt roads. A group of people called the Germans do a very good job and they proudly display their achievements in a little invention called the Autobahn. Smooth as silk and ecstasy to drive on. The Germans figured out that curing the asphalt minimizes the impact of erosion by chems and weather. It's stronger if it's allowed to set up before you start mashing it down. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

Jobs? It's not like the work will be gone tomorrow. There would be a transitional period. And there would be all those billions of extra dollars waiting for new industries and new markets. Maybe, just maybe, some of that money could go towards school and re-training for folks who used to pour asphalt. It may still be my tax money paying for this, but people would be getting better education and we all get to ride on great roads, don't forget that.

 

You'll probably want to pull out that tired old, "Just because it worked once doesn't mean it will work again" argument. Unfortunately, science tells us to repeat successes whenever possible. It usually leads to something wonderful.

Are you trying to hoodwink someone? Asphalt does not have the density of a rock.

I said, "as a rock", scarecrow. Not "is a rock".

Maybe science can figure out how to accomplish that feat, pull a miracle out of it’s hat?

Would it frighten you if the hat was German?

You are not kidding me Phi, your pet peeve is that flag man.

Maybe. But the flagman wouldn't show up as much if the roads last longer. I'll trade three months of detours for each road that gets fixed and I'll happily wave to the flag man every morning if eventually I get less construction and repaving slowdowns, less fresh asphalt on my car, less road taxes, more driving enjoyment and more peace of mind that a stupid, hideously wasteful process has been cleaned up leaving us ready for progress.

 

I'm not trying to kid you. My pet peeve is that we continue to let this problem happen out of convenience. As the OP suggests, we're afraid of upsetting the parts we like by fixing what we don't like. I think we let our fear of what might happen make us forget that progress needs momentum and usually gives us plenty of time for corrections.

[iNow]

The education system in the USA is regularly attacked for being second class, at best. Many reasons are given, most reflecting the particular bias of the observer - teacher unions bad, parents coddle kids, too much homework, too little homework, too many video games, etc. I heard someone say that we, as a society, don't really want to fix the system, because if we had truly educated citizens, who would buy all the crap? And we do buy a lot of crap in this country. Its a huge part of the economy. Is this a conspiracy of some sort? Are we all complicit? Or is it just the way we have evolved as a society, with now so much inertia in the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of this mountain of crap that we can't turn the damn thing around without a revolution or collapse?

 

It can also be said that those in control... those in a position to make the necessary changes... directly benefit from an ensheepened populace. Hence, it's in the interest of those in power to actively prevent those who "grant" them their control from becoming too educated and knowledgable.

 

 

Stupid people are easier to manage en masse, while smart people are easier to manage individually.

 

 

 

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak. "

~John Adams

[CDarwin]

I'm not trying to kid you. My pet peeve is that we continue to let this problem happen out of convenience. As the OP suggests, we're afraid of upsetting the parts we like by fixing what we don't like. I think we let our fear of what might happen make us forget that progress needs momentum and usually gives us plenty of time for corrections.

 

It might have something to do with the different power structure in the United States. Road work is done by state governments usually at the behest of local governments, and there is no incentive for a local government to have its main artery closed down for three months to let asphalt cure. That would be a big hit to its economy. Perhaps the system in Germany is set up differently.

 

I'm trying to propose a less cynical motivation, here. I haven't lost all my faith in humanity yet.

[Phi for All]

It might have something to do with the different power structure in the United States. Road work is done by state governments usually at the behest of local governments, and there is no incentive for a local government to have its main artery closed down for three months to let asphalt cure. That would be a big hit to its economy. Perhaps the system in Germany is set up differently.

Oh it is, as you can well imagine. The Autobahn is set up so they can divert traffic around virtually any spot that needs repair. But that's no different than it is here. I guess the big difference to me is whether you'd prefer to be diverted for three weeks every other year with our current system, or 3 months every ten years with the German system. It seems to me that the current system keeps you diverted more often, AND you don't get nice roads for very long.

 

So are more shorter diversions more often better than fewer longer diversions less often?

I'm trying to propose a less cynical motivation, here. I haven't lost all my faith in humanity yet.

I don't think it's a humanity issue; there are plenty of places where the consumer pays exorbitant prices due to either supply / demand pressures, inflated perceived value, lack of market knowledge (as in the case of how roads are built) and the biggest culprit, convenience.

 

We don't think about why we're paying $50 for a computer game that costs $7 to make; we think about all the hundreds of hours of enjoyment we'll get for our $50. That's an inflated perceived value; you'd never let an auto dealer get away with a 700% markup, even though you'll spend hundreds of hours driving the car (you'll experience the sharp markup when you go to buy parts, though). And when you combine lack of knowledge with the lure of convenience it's fairly easy to make the majority of people feel good about your high-priced product or service.

 

I wouldn't blame humanity quite yet. The folks who are spinning our information before they give it to us are very good at what they do. They are protecting a very large market, even though that market is hideously wasteful and expensive. Every business will try to post the best profits they are allowed to make. It's up to the consumer to get educated, get motivated and call out for some change.

[Dr.Evil]

Interesting thread. It just goes to show the state of socity today. Ignorance is bliss. At some point I am going to devise a test to look at the link between intelligence and depresion. I am expecting and bell shape. people want a quick easy fix as oppose to something worth while. Education is beter in rich contries but natural selection is less important as the stupid and week continue to multiply and socity lets them.