Kosovo is getting its independence:D

[CDarwin]

Each of those cases, including cases in the US, has its share of merits and drawbacks -- some are credible, others are not. I believe each case has to be looked at independently, not pawned off in a blanket statement one way or the other.

 

And in this case snubbing our noses in the face of a reformist Serbian government is a legitimate drawback to US and European support of Kosavo's independence. Whether-or-not that outweighs the other merits is a separate issue.

 

 

And, it may be a somewhat oblique historical point, but America has taken the position that Serbia is taking now. That's why we had a civil war.

[thedarkshade]

Everything was working out - all we had to do was wait and time would cure the problem.

Working out for who? And do you take into consideration the sacrifice our nation has done to get its freedom? Do you know what it feels to be under the politic of Milosevic?

 

They had closed our schools, fired every single Albanian (only those who were their spies), and you say everything was working out, every single thing was corrupted, they imprisoned all of those who they could catch in protests and you say everything was working out! It took a whole family, 52 member to die just so the war could officially start, a war fought by Albanian defending their country with simple guns and rifles against serbians armed with everything a modern army should be armed!Is that a fair war? Hell no, but we just couldn't take it any more!

 

The war ended and we somehow managed to create a government and fe years later the negotiations with serbians begun. Complete failure!!! And yet we guaranteed all the right possible for them! Then Russia demanded extra negotiations, OK, we did those too, nothing came out! And there way no way out! We had to declare our independence. And this happened in complete coordination with western countries because what could we do ourselves? And we did become independent, and what do serbians do? They go and burn to costum point in the border with Serbia! How does that look like for a civilized country, but OK we can cope this, but just for now!

But this is not it! Serbia declares the arrest of George Bush, Hashim Thaqi and Fatmir Sejdiu, and who in the world thinks that is some wise step? Is this a pro-western politic? Is this how a modern country behaves?

 

And you say it was working out!

 

Yes, this is where new countries learn that having is not the same as wanting. Your government is now responsible for the protection of millions of people it wanted dead three days ago. And the whole world will be watching how it handles that responsibility. It will not be easy, nor is there any particular reason for anyone to think that Kosovo any better equipped to deal with this issue than anybody else (and quite a lot of reason to think them less well equipped).

 

For what it's worth, I wish them luck.

Absolutely! Our politicians have thought about these things too, and we have taken these challenges with full attention. We will show Serbians and we will show world that we can apply democracy with same opportunities to all minorities! We have been and always will be pro-western and we will always follow the best democratic models! Serbians, roms , turks, everyone in our country is considered as a citizen in the same way that albanians are itself. The law is the same for all!

[Pangloss]

And in this case snubbing our noses in the face of a reformist Serbian government is a legitimate drawback to US and European support of Kosavo's independence. Whether-or-not that outweighs the other merits is a separate issue.

 

Well I think you raise a legitimate concern, which in my opinion is outweighed by the merits of independence. At any rate, this is not a black and white issue.

 

 

And, it may be a somewhat oblique historical point, but America has taken the position that Serbia is taking now. That's why we had a civil war.

 

Certainly, but I've already stipulated this. As I said:

 

Each of those cases, including cases in the US[/b'], has its share of merits and drawbacks -- some are credible, others are not. I believe each case has to be looked at independently, not pawned off in a blanket statement one way or the other.

 

And my response is adequate to that example.

[Severian]

Working out for who? And do you take into consideration the sacrifice our nation has done to get its freedom? Do you know what it feels to be under the politic of Milosevic?

 

 

You are talking about a regime that is no longer in power. The things that were done in the war were terrible, I agree. But they are in the past and should remain there. Do you really want to continue to live in a climate of hostility?

 

And we did become independent, and what do serbians do? They go and burn to costum point in the border with Serbia!

 

And I think that is exactly the problem. The people who burned your customs post are living inside the borders of Kosovo - they are people who you separated from their state. You are recreating the same tensions all over again. Are you now going to arrest any Serbians living within Kosovo who choose to protest? Are they going to have to fight with rifles against a modern Nato army? Are they going to have to die for their freedom?

 

Because quite frankly, the rabidity of feeling from Kosovans (as demonstrated by your post) leads me to believe that there will be more bloodshed.

[Pangloss]

In other news, Northern Ireland was reunited with Ireland today.............................

 

......................

 

.....(thinkaboutit).....

 

 

...(hinthint)...

 

 

(...)

 

(psst, thinkabout it!)

[Severian]

In other news, Northern Ireland was reunited with Ireland today.............................

 

Are you implying that you think this would be a good thing?

[thedarkshade]

You are talking about a regime that is no longer in power. The things that were done in the war were terrible, I agree. But they are in the past and should remain there. Do you really want to continue to live in a climate of hostility?

Of course we don't want! We proclaim democracy and justice for all our citizens, including serbians too! And believe me, no matter how much time will pass, all the serbians need is a chance so they can burn Kosova again and if they have the chance they will do it, and they will not take into consideration the fact that we treated them as citizens equal to albanians!

 

 

 

And I think that is exactly the problem. The people who burned your customs post are living inside the borders of Kosovo - they are people who you separated from their state. You are recreating the same tensions all over again. Are you now going to arrest any Serbians living within Kosovo who choose to protest? Are they going to have to fight with rifles against a modern Nato army? Are they going to have to die for their freedom?

 

Because quite frankly, the rabidity of feeling from Kosovans (as demonstrated by your post) leads me to believe that there will be more bloodshed.

Arrest them??? No no no, it is their right to protest if they feel something is not right, but not violent protests. Which country in the world could tolerate such actions as burning of the customs? They live within our country, they are considered as our citizens and the law is the same for all, not matter albanian serbian turk whatever. Whoever does such actions will be sentenced by the democratic law!

[ecoli]

The American Embassy in Belgrade was attacked by Serbian protesters... now the fun will begin.

[Pangloss]

Are you implying that you think this would be a good thing?

 

Why not? There's been relative peace there, but mainly because the Catholic side more or less threw in the towel, and some say it's still simmering beneath the surface. What if it comes back again? Will you still consider it peacefully resolved?

 

And even if that worked for Northern Ireland, does anyone really envision that working for Palestine and Israel? Come on.

 

I'm saying your solution isn't (a) always applicable, nor (b) an honest example of the world staying out of their affairs. I think the world has every right, for example, to keep an eye on the human rights situation in Northern Ireland, and recommend or even support changes if it gets out of hand again. And if the UK doesn't like it, too bad.

 

I don't really envision that becoming a problem again, because good, smart people are working hard to ensure it doesn't. But I think the comparison is valid.

[Severian]

Why not? There's been relative peace there, but mainly because the Catholic side more or less threw in the towel, and some say it's still simmering beneath the surface. What if it comes back again? Will you still consider it peacefully resolved?

 

You are strengthening my point, not yours. There has been peace in NI because a liberal democratic government maintained the status quo, treating all citizens equally and allowing the time to wash away the hurts.

 

There would have been an absolute bloodbath had NI been handed over to the Republic.

 

And even if that worked for Northern Ireland, does anyone really envision that working for Palestine and Israel? Come on.

 

I think the only way out of the Israeli/Palestine issue is to create a new state which is not Israel and is not Palestine, which encompasses both cultures and treats everyone equally. I don't envisage that happening any time soon because the hardliners won't allow it, but that is the only way.

 

 

I think the world has every right, for example, to keep an eye on the human rights situation in Northern Ireland, and recommend or even support changes if it gets out of hand again. And if the UK doesn't like it, too bad.

 

First of all, I wouldn't trust the US to be impartial over NI, so they should keep their noses out. Secondly, only an idiot would have supported the independence of NI when the situation was getting better by the day. But even though the situation in Kosovo was improving, the UN, US and EU still stuck their big noses in an made it all worse again.

[CDarwin]

First of all, I wouldn't trust the US to be impartial over NI, so they should keep their noses out. Secondly, only an idiot would have supported the independence of NI when the situation was getting better by the day. But even though the situation in Kosovo was improving, the UN, US and EU still stuck their big noses in an made it all worse again.

 

In fairness, it wasn't like this independence move was engineered by the West. It was a declaration by the Albanian majority in a territory which has already been defined as autonomous within Serbia. The only think the UN, US, and EU have control over is their response.

[Severian]

In fairness, it wasn't like this independence move was engineered by the West. It was a declaration by the Albanian majority in a territory which has already been defined as autonomous within Serbia. The only think the UN, US, and EU have control over is their response.

 

I think having a rather large army camped in Kosovo may also help their 'control' a little.

[Pangloss]

I think the only way out of the Israeli/Palestine issue is to create a new state which is not Israel and is not Palestine, which encompasses both cultures and treats everyone equally. I don't envisage that happening any time soon because the hardliners won't allow it, but that is the only way.

 

Then we're on agreement in principle, we just disagree on the specific case of Kosovo, which is a matter of opinion. (shrug)

[thedarkshade]

The American Embassy in Belgrade was attacked by Serbian protesters... now the fun will begin.

What a culture from a country huh...

 

And there was a burned person too... it's real bad to see how violence is breeding again among serbians!

[Physia]

KOSOVO was always a province and WILL REMAIN a province.

 

These independence declarations are trash.

 

Sooner or later they will be gone.

 

Whenever a province seems like they want an independent state, they shall have it?

That is illogical.

[thedarkshade]

KOSOVO was always a province and WILL REMAIN a province.

We are an independent, sovereign and democratic country. Our country is build under the principles of democratic and international laws. We are officially the Republic of Kosova, like it or not.

 

These independence declarations are trash.

Our independence has been officially recognized by USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy which represent the main countries and a dozen more countries and every day more than 3 countries recognize our independence officially. A trash declaration of independence would not result with all this.

 

Sooner or later they will be gone.

Well, that 'sooner or later' will definitely last a long long time!

 

Whenever a province seems like they want an independent state, they shall have it?

That is illogical.

Kosova is our country and has always been so. I know my history better than any other person in the world, because we are talking about my country, my pride and my dignity, and this has always been ours. We have fully deserved our independence for our high political culture shown since the ending of the war.

[Physia]

Sorry to offend you if I did bud, but if in southern California Mexicans felt like they need a separate country from the States, they shall revolt and take over?

 

That just doesn't seem logical.

[ecoli]

Sorry to offend you if I did bud, but if in southern California Mexicans felt like they need a separate country from the States, they shall revolt and take over?

If they had a legitimate cause... why not?

[CDarwin]

Sorry to offend you if I did bud, but if in southern California Mexicans felt like they need a separate country from the States, they shall revolt and take over?

 

That just doesn't seem logical.

 

It's not an analogous scenario. Kosavo declaring independence is more like, say, Puerto Rico trying to break away from the United States. It's an autonomous territory.

[bombus]

Why not? There's been relative peace there, but mainly because the Catholic side more or less threw in the towel, and some say it's still simmering beneath the surface. What if it comes back again? Will you still consider it peacefully resolved?

 

And even if that worked for Northern Ireland, does anyone really envision that working for Palestine and Israel? Come on.

 

I'm saying your solution isn't (a) always applicable, nor (b) an honest example of the world staying out of their affairs. I think the world has every right, for example, to keep an eye on the human rights situation in Northern Ireland, and recommend or even support changes if it gets out of hand again. And if the UK doesn't like it, too bad.

 

I don't really envision that becoming a problem again, because good, smart people are working hard to ensure it doesn't. But I think the comparison is valid.

 

Northern Ireland is British because the majority want to remain British. The British Govt. would dearly love a united Ireland, but it cannot simply abandon British citizens. As soon as the majority in NI want to join the South it will happen.

 

Of course, NI is a prime example of what not to do, and why Kosovan independance will only bring self sustaining bloodshed. When Ireland had it's vote on independence, it was done county by county, and Ulster (NI) chose to remain British. However, it should never have been done county by county, and should have been done as a nation-wide vote. In those days the British Empire didn't want to give away any territory.

 

The 'troubles' were the end result. Kosovo will go the same way, just far worse. Like I said. independence is an out-dated solution. The rest of Europe is moving closer together and this goes in exactly the opposite direction.

 

I fear this whole issue is done on purpose to inflame the situation, drive further wedges between East and West, and provoke Russia, in the hope that the cold war can be started once more. It was after all the most profitable war ever (not)fought, and ensured the arms industry $$$ galore!

 

Forward to the 1960's!!

[thedarkshade]

The 'troubles' were the end result. Kosovo will go the same way, just far worse. Like I said. independence is an out-dated solution. The rest of Europe is moving closer together and this goes in exactly the opposite direction.

It is indeed moving closer together if you're referin to EU countries, but to enter EU you must fulfill some conditions, which now we are still not in condition to. And how could we improve our conditions and therefore move closer to EU if we didn't have control of our own country? Independence was the only way!

[CrazCo]

Yay! :)

[thedarkshade]

Yay! :)

And that specifically refers to....?

[CrazCo]

getting independence silly

[Severian]

Probably because Kosova represent a new country born and being developed in a democratic way

 

Is this new 'democratic way' the way in which the minority disagree with the majority so violently that they declare their independence?

 

according to all democratic international laws

 

Which laws would these be?