Pangloss Posted February 27, 2008 Posted February 27, 2008 Mod note: Iraq-related threads have been moved to here.
thedarkshade Posted February 27, 2008 Author Posted February 27, 2008 getting independence silly Yeah sure:doh:, thanks a lot CC!
ParanoiA Posted February 28, 2008 Posted February 28, 2008 Is this new 'democratic way' the way in which the minority disagree with the majority so violently that they declare their independence? Why not? Is there another kind of "morally righteous" form of declaring independence? Doesn't it all really just boil down to whether or not you have the might to enforce your independence? There are pros and cons to national independence, but I never really thought of it as wrong or right. Just likes lines in the dirt that we implicitly defend with the threat of violence, what makes us so right?
Severian Posted February 28, 2008 Posted February 28, 2008 Why not? Is there another kind of "morally righteous" form of declaring independence? Doesn't it all really just boil down to whether or not you have the might to enforce your independence? I never made any judgment - I was pointing out that it is not democratic.
Mr Skeptic Posted February 28, 2008 Posted February 28, 2008 Is this new 'democratic way' the way in which the minority disagree with the majority so violently that they declare their independence? Seems democratic to me. The majority in Kosovo wanted independence, and the majority of countries recognize their independence.
thedarkshade Posted February 28, 2008 Author Posted February 28, 2008 Seems democratic to me. The majority in Kosovo wanted independence, and the majority of countries recognize their independence. Yup! More than 90% was pro-independence, and only serbians were against. And the number of countries that have recognized our independence and are in process of creating diplomatic relations is quite big.
CDarwin Posted February 28, 2008 Posted February 28, 2008 Seems democratic to me. The majority in Kosovo wanted independence, and the majority of countries recognize their independence. Well that all depends on what you define as "Kosavo" and "Serbia" doesn't it? I will certainly concede that the majority of Albanians wanted independence.
ParanoiA Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 I never made any judgment - I was pointing out that it is not democratic. Well it is though. By your definition any declaration of independence is desitined to be undemocratic since you apparently insist on counting the repudiated majority. Which still doesn't stand well, considering they are vesting and exercising power through their people, a democratic behavior. Why don't they change from 'majority' to 'foreigner' when Kosovo claims independence? Somehow this "majority" still has the necessary relevence to label this an undemocratic experience? Please...
john5746 Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Well it is though. By your definition any declaration of independence is desitined to be undemocratic since you apparently insist on counting the repudiated majority. Which still doesn't stand well, considering they are vesting and exercising power through their people, a democratic behavior. Why don't they change from 'majority' to 'foreigner' when Kosovo claims independence? Somehow this "majority" still has the necessary relevence to label this an undemocratic experience? Please... I agree with Severian on this one. I think you have to take the original country as a whole to determine the democratic process. If a vote is taken and the majority decide, then that is democracy in action. Anything else is revolution, IMO.
ParanoiA Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 I agree with Severian on this one. I think you have to take the original country as a whole to determine the democratic process. If a vote is taken and the majority decide, then that is democracy in action. Anything else is revolution, IMO. Sure, I completely agree it's a revolution, but what process is the revolt governed by? Any "revolution" isn't democratic with respect to those they are revolting from, obviously. But that doesn't mean their internal governing structure isn't democratic, I believe that was what DarkShade was talking about. I contend it is quite a democratic revolution...
john5746 Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I contend it is quite a democratic revolution... Well, I agree that they appear to be placing a democracy in place, but I would not call it a democratic revolution. I would call it a revolution that will result in a new democracy. The pros and cons of any seperation should be weighed, of course keeping it peaceful takes a big burden off the con column. I don't know enough about the area to have an educated opinion, although the carnage during the war would make it understandable that a seperation would be desirable. I hope it works out well regardless.
CDarwin Posted March 3, 2008 Posted March 3, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7274205.stm Apparently, Greece is blocking the entrance of Macedonia (FYRM) into NATO because the name of the Republic makes them think that they have designs on the northern Greek province of Macedonia. Greece wants the official name changed. This might have bearings on Kosavo, as the western FYRM is majority Albanian and there has already been some chatter about a "greater Kosavo" incorporating majority Albanian regions outside of Serbia.
ecoli Posted March 3, 2008 Posted March 3, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7274205.stm Apparently, Greece is blocking the entrance of Macedonia (FYRM) into NATO because the name of the Republic makes them think that they have designs on the northern Greek province of Macedonia. Greece wants the official name changed. This might have bearings on Kosavo, as the western FYRM is majority Albanian and there has already been some chatter about a "greater Kosavo" incorporating majority Albanian regions outside of Serbia. They've been having this name dispute for some time, especially when Macedonia was admitted into the UN. They haven't gone to war over it yet.
CDarwin Posted March 3, 2008 Posted March 3, 2008 They've been having this name dispute for some time, especially when Macedonia was admitted into the UN. They haven't gone to war over it yet. Greece can actually veto Macedonia's entrance into NATO, though, since every member state has that power. It's not a permanent security council member in the UN. The importance isn't that Greece is about to invade Macedonia. It's that this could lead to internal disruption within Macedonia that might result in Albanians splitting off or any number of events. I just thought the article was interesting.
thedarkshade Posted March 3, 2008 Author Posted March 3, 2008 If a vote is taken and the majority decide, then that is democracy in action. Indirectly! There was no referendum or such thing, only elections by which our institutions were chosen. Then it was those institutions, chosen by majority, that declared the independence which was the will of every albanian!
Severian Posted March 8, 2008 Posted March 8, 2008 Well, it looks like Serbia's government has collapsed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7285322.stm On the heels of Kosovo's independence I think we can expect a new government less sympathetic with the west. I wouldn't be suprised if we didn't see a lot more violence.
Severian Posted March 9, 2008 Posted March 9, 2008 You see how thing become apparent! If you mean that it has become apparent that the independence of Kosovo was a bad idea, then I agree. Something tells me that wasn't what you were meaning though....
thedarkshade Posted March 9, 2008 Author Posted March 9, 2008 If you mean that it has become apparent that the independence of Kosovo was a bad idea, then I agree. Something tells me that wasn't what you were meaning though....No sunshine, it's the government of Serbia which became apparent that is not a government that a modern country should have. And why the government collapsed? Well you cannot go on governing a country when inside the government you got pro-western politicians and radical ultra-nationalist politicians like Vojislav Kostunica. They just don't fit!
Severian Posted March 9, 2008 Posted March 9, 2008 No sunshine, it's the government of Serbia which became apparent that is not a government that a modern country should have. Surely that is up to the people of Serbia to decide as a whole? Or are you just anti-democracy? And why the government collapsed? Well you cannot go on governing a country when inside the government you got pro-western politicians and radical ultra-nationalist politicians like Vojislav Kostunica. They just don't fit! Well, maybe you are right. Maybe Serbia will function more efficiently with only ultra-nationalists in power.
thedarkshade Posted March 9, 2008 Author Posted March 9, 2008 Surely that is up to the people of Serbia to decide as a whole? Or are you just anti-democracy?Well, they seem to be taking not so good decisions Well, maybe you are right. Maybe Serbia will function more efficiently with only ultra-nationalists in power.Oh, like they did with Milosevic?!
Pangloss Posted March 9, 2008 Posted March 9, 2008 The fact that Serbia is struggling actually underscores the logic of Kosovo's departure. I'm sorry that's not working out the way European hegemonists desired, but calling that anti-democratic is pretty hypocritical, IMO.
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