Bioelectricity

[stevo247]

Could someone explain to me the nature of bioelectricity? Based on my experience (a goof while repairing a lamp), electricity does not seem “body friendly”. Since organic material is not usually considered a good conductor of electricity, how does bioelectricity conduct itself within the body?

[Psycho]

Could someone explain to me the nature of bioelectricity? Based on my experience (a goof while repairing a lamp), electricity does not seem “body friendly”. Since organic material is not usually considered a good conductor of electricity, how does bioelectricity conduct itself within the body?

 

It is normally a charge difference across a membrane with more of one type of ion on one side than the other, for instance in neurons they have proteins on the axons that pump Na+ out and K+ in in a 3:2 ratio this causes a electrochemical potential to form which is then used to pass the action potential.

 

In the case of oxidative phosphorylation the electrons from NADH and FADH2 are passed along a serious of electron acceptors which are proteins and coenzymes this causes a negative potential for a time on the molecules causing H+ ions to be translocated across the mitochondrial membrane into the matrix, this means there is an increase on the inside of the mitochondria of 0.14mV these H+ then flow down the electrochemical gradient causing ATPase to spin and release ATP.

 

It isn't electricity in the same way electrons flow down a wire, but it is similar.

[zule]

Could someone explain to me the nature of bioelectricity?

As Psycho has said, all cells have Na+/K+ pumps which create an electrochemical potential between the inside and the outside of the cell. The electrical current is produced when, due to the opening and closing of ionic channels, this resting potential is disrupted. This electrical current can be driven to the neighbouring cells directly or indirectly.

 

 

 

Since organic material is not usually considered a good conductor of electricity, how does bioelectricity conduct itself within the body?

We can compare our body with our house. Most of our house is air, which is a very bad electrical conductor. However, a lot of electrical devices work in our house: electricity is transmitted. We can consider that a neuron is an electrical device, being the axon the wire.

 

 

 

Based on my experience (a goof while repairing a lamp), electricity does not seem “body friendly”.

When a lightning hits on our house, all the connected devices can be broken down. It's electricity, but so much uncontrolled electricity is bad for our house. On the same way, a 220V electrical current can “break down” our cells.

[stevo247]

If the movement of substances and the activity of the body is considered an expenditure of energy, how is electrical energy added to the system? Is it derived somehow through the ingestion of air, food and water?

[iNow]

It is induced chemically, those chemicals are manufactured by the body, and the body gets it's energy through food, breathing, etc... So, in a way, you could say yes to your question, but that's not really a direct or clear answer to a larger question of the generation of that electrical current (or, more appropriately, that "chemoelectrical" current).

 

 

Check out this really easy to follow link on the "action potential:"

 

 

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/ap.html

 

This page describes how neurons work. I hope this explanation does not get too complicated, but it is important to understand how neurons do what they do. There are many details, but go slow and look at the figures.

 

 

 

And the wiki on an action potential has some great info too.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

[YT2095]

and also the body is a reasonably Good conductor!

it`s just the Skin that isn`t all that great, giving an avg of about 200Kohm resistance, but even that`s not all too great a resistance either!

 

I have a small DC motor here, and I can introduce myself as part of the circuit (as if I were a wire) and the motor will turn, I can do the same with LEDs, I`de call that quite a Low resistance!

 

Edited to Add: DO NOT try this at home!, I know exactly what I`m doing and how to do it safely!

[stevo247]

Not surprisingly, pure water is a bad electrical conductor, but salt water is very good.

 

“The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts and sometimes other chemical species which tend to ionize in the solution.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity

 

 

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

 

“The model of electrical signal propagation in neurons employing voltage-gated ion channels described above is accepted by almost all scientists working in the field. However there are a few observations not easily reconciled with the model:

• A signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards.[4]

• An action potential traveling along a neuron results in a slight increase in temperature followed by a decrease in temperature;[5] electrical charges traveling through a resistor however always produce heat.”

 

Is there a fluid congestion that accompanies the sodium ion transfer and the spike in action potential?

 

Also, does the electrical charge travel across the cell membrane or within the membrane?

[insane_alien]

Edited to Add: DO NOT try this at home!, I know exactly what I`m doing and how to do it safely!

 

says the guy who cut the tip of his thumb off not so long ago...

 

but yeah, a little bit out and your not going to be a happy(or breathing) bunny.

[zule]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

 

“The model of electrical signal propagation in neurons employing voltage-gated ion channels described above is accepted by almost all scientists working in the field. However there are a few observations not easily reconciled with the model:

• A signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards.[4]

• An action potential traveling along a neuron results in a slight increase in temperature followed by a decrease in temperature;[5] electrical charges traveling through a resistor however always produce heat.”

Why have you pasted this specific piece of information? Is it related to the question you make below? Or did you want to discuss this paragraph?

 

 

 

Is there a fluid congestion that accompanies the sodium ion transfer and the spike in action potential?

Sorry. I don’t understand the question. Why would the fluid congest?

 

 

 

Also, does the electrical charge travel across the cell membrane or within the membrane?

Ions go across the membrane. For example, Na+ enters into the cell disrupting the resting potential and creating in this way an action potential. This action potential then travels along the cellular membrane.

Ions can’t stay into the membrane because the membrane is a very polar one. They cross the membrane through specific channels.

[iNow]

stevo, you might also look into the "sodium potassium pump" and "resting potential."

 

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1210.html

http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~gkaiser/biotutorials/eustruct/sppump.html

http://www.miracosta.edu/home/sfoster/neurons/rest.htm

 

 

And here's one that's a little more fun:

 

http://outreach.mcb.harvard.edu/animations/actionpotential.swf

 

 

 

A while ago, I spent a bit of time on the following post which may also help (at least, I hope it does):

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?p=356230&highlight=sodium#post356230

 

 

Enjoy.

[zule]

 

And here's one that's a little more fun:

 

http://outreach.mcb.harvard.edu/animations/actionpotential.swf

 

 

iNow, thank you for this beautiful link. I like it very much. I have sent it to a friend who has to teach a class about this. What a pity that her alums can’t read in English! But anyway she can show the movie and explain it herself.

[iNow]

iNow, thank you for this beautiful link. I like it very much. I have sent it to a friend who has to teach a class about this. What a pity that her alums can’t read in English! But anyway she can show the movie and explain it herself.

 

You should thank the Harvard Outreach program, but I'm glad you found use in their information which I shared.

[stevo247]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

 

“The model of electrical signal propagation in neurons employing voltage-gated ion channels described above is accepted by almost all scientists working in the field. However there are a few observations not easily reconciled with the model:

• A signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards.[4]

• An action potential traveling along a neuron results in a slight increase in temperature followed by a decrease in temperature;[5] electrical charges traveling through a resistor however always produce heat.”

 

Why have you pasted this specific piece of information? Is it related to the question you make below? Or did you want to discuss this paragraph?

 

Is there a fluid congestion that accompanies the sodium ion transfer and the spike in action potential?

 

Yes, it was related to the question, but the paragraph is open for discussion.

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity with the question. Basically, I was curious about the statement that "a signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards". I was wondering if it could be due to a flow of fluid into the membrane causing a mechanical tension, and whether that mechanical tension could also be responsible for the slight increase in temperature. I picture an expanding and contracting bulge. The expansion coinciding with the charge, and the contraction coinciding with the discharge.

[iNow]

Sorry for the lack of clarity with the question. Basically, I was curious about the statement that "a signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards". I was wondering if it could be due to a flow of fluid into the membrane causing a mechanical tension, and whether that mechanical tension could also be responsible for the slight increase in temperature. I picture an expanding and contracting bulge. The expansion coinciding with the charge, and the contraction coinciding with the discharge.

 

Fortunately, that comment in the wiki link gave a source, which was this:

 

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/210/4467/338

 

Swelling of nerve fibers during the action potential was demonstrated by three different methods. Generation of a propagated nerve impulse in a crab nerve produced an outward movement of 50 to 100 angstroms of the nerve surfce and a rise in swelling pressure on the order of 5 dynes per square centimeter. In squid giant axons, the amplitude of the observed outward movement of the surface was small.

 

 

 

And, after a few minutes of googling, I found a different study which seems to explain some of the "why" behind it:

 

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1192646

These results suggest that the pressure responses arise either from a change in electrostriction across the axolemma or from a change in charge-dependent tension along the axolemma.

 

This article is available in full, without a need for subscription (for free), via the following .pdf:

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1192646&blobtype=pdf

[amiya]

Good one, iNow and Zule, for the swf. link. Psycho is great in explaining the membrane potential.

[YT2095]

says the guy who cut the tip of his thumb off not so long ago...

 

that was with a solid surgical steel Chinese meat cleaver whilst being sleep deprived for over 48 hours and I fancied a curry.

hardly the same thing:D

[zule]

Sorry for the lack of clarity with the question. Basically, I was curious about the statement that "a signal traveling along a neuron is accompanied by a slight local thickening of the membrane and a force acting outwards". I was wondering if it could be due to a flow of fluid into the membrane causing a mechanical tension, and whether that mechanical tension could also be responsible for the slight increase in temperature. I picture an expanding and contracting bulge. The expansion coinciding with the charge, and the contraction coinciding with the discharge.

 

When you talk about a fluid that flow I suppose you are speaking about water, because cells live in a watery medium. The water can’t stay into the membrane because water is very apolar and the inner o the membrane very polar. For that, they repel each other.

 

On the other hand, besides the thickening, what the model of voltage-gated ion channels isn’t able to explain is the decrease in temperature. The temperature increase is already explained due to the pass of electrical charges.

[stevo247]

When you talk about a fluid that flow I suppose you are speaking about water, because cells live in a watery medium. The water can’t stay into the membrane because water is very apolar and the inner o the membrane very polar. For that, they repel each other.

 

 

 

From what I can gather so far (I still have a lot of homework to do), the "charge" begins at the dentrite, travels through (across?) the cell body of the neuron, and then travels through the axon to the synapse. What happens to the cell body during this process? Does it expand and contract? Also, is there a movement of cytoplasmic fluid through the axon during the transmission of the charge?

[zule]

From what I can gather so far (I still have a lot of homework to do), the "charge" begins at the dentrite, travels through (across?) the cell body of the neuron, and then travels through the axon to the synapse. What happens to the cell body during this process? Does it expand and contract? Also, is there a movement of cytoplasmic fluid through the axon during the transmission of the charge?

 

 

I think that when you say “charge” you are referring to action potential. The action potential doesn’t have to begin at the dendrite. It can be transmitted directly from the axon of the neuron before as an electrical stimulus. But it can also arrive to the dendrite a chemical stimulus which will be transformed in an electrical in the dendrites and neuronal body. If this electrical stimulus is able to create an action potential, this one will travel along the axon.

 

I believe that you are thinking that the ions are really moving forward (an ion that starts in the dendrite and arrives at the end of the axon). But the thing is not like that. What actually occurs is that the Na+ passes from the exterior to the inner of the neuron. This prompts an action potential in the little part of the membrane which the Na+ has gone through. The action potential produced in this little part of the membrane due to the pass of Na+ prompts the opening of Na+ channels in the neighbouring parts of the membrane. So, another little piece of membrane get depolarised, an action potential is started in that little piece of membrane and so on.

[lokanath]

The external stimulii through the 5 sense organs ear, skin, eye,tongue and nose create action potential and it is carried to the brain through the neural network. This is being processed (not in the brain but somwhere in the subtle realm) and the output commands create brin currents in the efferent nerves and this motor impulses carry the reuired current to the muscles and the 5 organs of actionviz. hands,legs,tongue,genetal organ and organ of evacuation.

That means behind the physical body there is an electric field which is called BIOELECTRICITY

lokanath@excite.com

[iNow]

The external stimulii through the 5 sense organs ear, skin, eye,tongue and nose create action potential and it is carried to the brain through the neural network. This is being processed (not in the brain but somwhere in the subtle realm)

 

Hi lokanath,

 

Can you please elaborate on your comment about how these are not being processed in the brain? Also, can you please elaborate on this "subtle realm?" Thank you.

[zule]

This is being processed (not in the brain but somwhere in the subtle realm) and the output commands create brin currents in the efferent nerves and this motor impulses carry the reuired current to the muscles

 

So, does our brain have any usefulness? Or could we just remove it and rely on esoteric ways of thinking instead?

[swansont]

Edited to Add: DO NOT try this at home!, I know exactly what I`m doing and how to do it safely!

 

This one's for you

[YT2095]

LOL, that won`t be on mine, I want: "Here lies a sod, and 6 foot under lies another one".

 

anyway, this is the offending blade:

as you can imagine, it would be hard NOT to chop something off when you`r half asleep and using it.

[Islenya]

Finally, I found you folks. I read a few terrible blogs last night on my subject. You, I think, might be able to explain things much better.

Sometimes, when I walk at night, street lights go out as I walk under them. One after the other. At one point in my life, they would go out on the expressway just before I approached (at speed) in my car. A few times, they turn on. This has been witnessed and corroborated by people with me at the time. I cannot do it at will. When I was younger, I was given a Hamilton wrist watch that never would run if I wore it. My mother wears it and it works just fine. A jeweler examined it three separate times: there's nothing wrong.

The streetlight thing happens when I am "chemically unbalanced" (interpret how you will), and feeling distressed.

I am interested in the bioelectrical energy field that I may be emitting. Anybody want to take this on?

 

How is this related to bioelectricity?