This whole world f***ing sucks (Rant....)

[Glider]

Ahh, there's no malevolence or shame in the natural world. There is only what is. Some people view the reality of nature and "Oh, cruel world!" springs to their lips, but that's only because they're applying human values to what they see. A more accurate exclamation would be "Oh, indifferent world!".

 

Malevolence and shameful behaviour are entirley human constructs. No predator acts with malicious intent or cruelty. Its primary intent is not to cause suffering, it's simply to eat. Leopards do not hate gazelles. Lions do not hold a vendetta against zebra. No predator is sadistic. No animal is immoral as all animals are amoral (morals are human constructs and so do not apply).

 

Constructs such as cruelty, avarice and hypocracy are entirely human and it is these that truly separate humans from other animals. Chief among these, I would say, is hypocracy. As I've said before, the only thing that approaches the ideals that humans set for themselves, is our signal failure to achive any of them.

[padren]

I've often felt that way, and at times felt like words like "altruism" were forms of self delusion. Personally, I took the tact that I'd rather be a self deluded altruist and a fool than a sharp cutting bastard, and the nice part is when my disposition shifted, I was fortunate enough not to regret anything from those days.

 

 

The truth is, what you are saying is a far more accurate picture of the world than you had before, but it isn't super accurate yet either - its actually a lot more complex yet!

 

We were not born an enlightened species, we evolved as social animals, which became tribal and clannish an competed more with other groups of humans than nature, causing in us a deep, primal distrust of other "tribes" or people who are different in general.

 

But it is amazing we have made as much progress socially as we have - not any of it is ours by birthright, which at first is hard to accept but in the end makes those victories all the more meaningful.

 

Just consider how unlikely it is for this world to exist at all. Even the universe doesn't "add up" when you try to examine the issue of "first cause" and all that... for a single conscious observer to fleetingly see even a single thing that they can describe as "beautiful" in the entire lifespan of the universe would, to me, something to be humbled by. And we've landed in a universe that offers that and so much more right where we are right this moment. I find that mindblowingly sweet, personally.

 

 

I chalk what you feel up to one of the harsher aspects of the human condition: we have an idea of what the world is, and it is never what the world actually is. The mind's model of the world is always cleaner, more theoretical, and without a lot of the messes of reality. Then it fails to model reality, breaks down, and we blame the world for being less than our model. We often beat ourselves up when we don't live up to our model's idea of what we think we are.

You do not have the "right" to live in the world you thought existed - so you are not being cheated out of anything. You're just here, like everyone else, trying to figure out where the hell we are actually living. Just keep refining your understanding of the world, and when something about it bothers you, explore the truth behind it more. And, take time to relax and enjoy what's beautiful about the world. Physical experiences can really change one's mood, which changes how one thinks, and gives more perspectives to consider. Even your pessimism is just another mental model, so don't make the same mistake and put undue faith in that one, either.

[YT2095]

Your world doesn`t scare me!

 

[Severian]

While it is certainly true that you can't have happiness without the correct mental attitude, the correct mental attitude is not enough to guarantee happiness. If you are being tortured, or are starving to death in Africa, or in an abusive relationship, or suffering form severe medical problems, then it is hard to be happy.

 

The problem with life, in my opinion, is that there is really no material way of guaranteeing, or even working towards a 'happier' life. We are always told in school the route to a happy life is to work hard, live a moral life and be a constructive member of society. But frankly, that is just such bullshit.

 

Even if you work really hard at school, graduate top of your class at university, and get an outstanding PhD in a difficult and global subject, you will most probably end up in a job where you are underpaid, unappreciated and made to feel generally worthless. Even if you stick to your romantic notions about love, give the girl flowers, be a gentleman and wait for the one you feel you truely love, you will probably still up end 15 years later wondering what the hell you are doing in this horrible relationship. If you live a moral life, give large amounts of money to charity, volunteer for community projects, work with disadvantaged schoolchildren, you will still find yourself wondering if life wouldn't have been more fun if you had made those "sex, drugs and roll and roll" choices long long ago. Even if you work out every day, eat all the right foods, and generally look after yourself pretty well, you will still probably be told you have a degenerative brain disease before you are 30.

 

People keep saying that modern society is a place of opportunity, that all you have to do is reach out and grab success and happiness. I think that is rubbish - I think it is harder to be happy in modern society than it has ever been. Most of us are just treading water, waiting to grow old and die.

 

If you are expecting the material world to make you happy, ultimately you are going to be disappointed.

[YT2095]

from My perspective, I think the Greatest gift that God ever gave us (other than sending his son Jesus here to die for our sins and thus hack the system to overcome Death) is our Sense of Humor!

 

it`s something not shared by other animals, and seems to be Uniquely Human (just as our bad shit can be).

 

but with a Sense of Humor, all sorts of strife and difficulty can be made bearable!

 

don`t take things TOO seriously!

[ParanoiA]

Malevolence and shameful behaviour are entirley human constructs.

 

Right but the OP is lamenting about these constructs, so I was just trying to make the point that rather than see everything as "instinctive good, doing bad things" that perhaps it should be better viewed as "instinctive bad, doing good things".

 

The things he sees as so rotten in this world are found in all of nature, not just mankind. And it's only mankind that has the ability to empathize and construct ideas of moral and ethical behavior and then judge that nature.

 

His depair is of his own making, quite a similar point to yours really.

[doG]

No matter how bad things are I'd envision that anyone can imagine how bad someone else has it somewhere else in the world. Someone's always got a worse life than you have so be appreciative of what you have.

[iNow]

To add to doG's point above, the moment you no longer realize that there are always people worse off than you is the same moment that the problems are not with the world, but with the person perceiving it.

[Norman Albers]

I think doG's point is what drives the urge to "watch the news", though it is a ridiculous compendium of bummers. We could start a newspaper and call it THE DAILY BUMMER.

[YT2095]

heavens to Mergatroid! what a perfectly gnarly idea

[Reaper]

Ahh, there's no malevolence or shame in the natural world. There is only what is. Some people view the reality of nature and "Oh, cruel world!" springs to their lips, but that's only because they're applying human values to what they see. A more accurate exclamation would be "Oh, indifferent world!".

 

Well, that depends on what aspect of the world (or universe rather) you are looking at...

 

Malevolence and shameful behaviour are entirley human constructs. No predator acts with malicious intent or cruelty. Its primary intent is not to cause suffering, it's simply to eat. Leopards do not hate gazelles. Lions do not hold a vendetta against zebra. No predator is sadistic. No animal is immoral as all animals are amoral (morals are human constructs and so do not apply).

 

Constructs such as cruelty, avarice and hypocracy are entirely human and it is these that truly separate humans from other animals. Chief among these, I would say, is hypocracy. As I've said before, the only thing that approaches the ideals that humans set for themselves, is our signal failure to achive any of them.

 

 

I don't quite agree with you here. While this sort of mindset would definitely be appropriate for nonliving things and processes, I would not hesitate to apply so-called "human contructs" to animals. And as for predators being sadistic, well, I'm pretty certain that they do get some enjoyment out of killing their prey.

 

No matter how bad things are I'd envision that anyone can imagine how bad someone else has it somewhere else in the world. Someone's always got a worse life than you have so be appreciative of what you have.

 

 

Yeah? Well, why don't you tell that to someone who does live in those wretched conditions, down in those third world countries, and see how they respond.

 

Or better yet, why don't you take a look at all the stuff you are appreciative about and take a look at the places at which they were made...

 

I'm sorry, but I look at this world and I'm impressed there's a living thing on it that has the capacity to be sad for it. That's hope isn't it?

 

SOME human beings are capable of doing that..... But whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing has yet to be seen. Just because we have the ability to empathize doesn't mean that it will necessarily lead to good.

[doG]

Yeah? Well, why don't you tell that to someone who does live in those wretched conditions, down in those third world countries, and see how they respond.

 

Or better yet, why don't you take a look at all the stuff you are appreciative about and take a look at the places at which they were made...

 

All hail the pessimist.

 

Even a squalid life in a third world country is better than no life at all. Then again, some people can only see the negative side of anything. I pity them....

[YT2095]

I Dedicate this Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35WRFDcKGo

to the OP

[Reaper]

All hail the pessimist.

 

Even a squalid life in a third world country is better than no life at all.

 

Oh really? It is clear then that you really have no idea what the hell you are talking about....

 

 

 

 

Then again, some people can only see the negative side of anything. I pity them....

 

and

 

To add to doG's point above, the moment you no longer realize that there are always people worse off than you is the same moment that the problems are not with the world, but with the person perceiving it.

 

 

 

I usually have a policy of not responding to idiotic statements; you are lucky that I have enough restraint.

 

 

 

I Dedicate this Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35WRFDcKGo

to the OP

 

 

Thanks. Although, I'm pretty much over it by now. At the time I was writing this out of frustration after reading some book...

 

The bright side is nice, but take care not to be blinded by it....

 

The things he sees as so rotten in this world are found in all of nature, not just mankind.

 

Yeah, but there is a difference; Nature just is, as Glider eloquently put it.

[ParanoiA]

Yeah, but there is a difference; Nature just is, as Glider eloquently put it.

 

Yes, and we are nature too Lockheed, and we just are. That's what I've been trying to tell you. We are doing no different than any other predator on the earth yet you see shame in us and not them. And it's my contention that our unique inclination to dream up concepts such as "shame" and apply them to ourselves is wonderful.

[Reaper]

Yes, and we are nature too Lockheed, and we just are. That's what I've been trying to tell you. We are doing no different than any other predator on the earth yet you see shame in us and not them.

And it's my contention that our unique inclination to dream up concepts such as "shame" and apply them to ourselves is wonderful.

 

Yeah, but most of nature behaves the way it does simply because of a set of laws. And as for animals, we are not even sure if they are even capable of actually being aware of what they are doing.

 

We humans not only have the ability to do what you just described, but also the ability to act on our morals/ethics/whatever too. The fact that we aren't willing too is what the issue is.

 

I've read somewhere that we have the same instincts as a chimpanzee and other primates, but we also have hugely more power.

[Royston]

Yeah, but most of nature behaves the way it does simply because of a set of laws.

 

What makes you think humans don't behave, due to a set of laws ?

 

We humans not only have the ability to do what you just described, but also the ability to act on our morals/ethics/whatever too. The fact that we aren't willing too is what the issue is.

 

Who's 'we' exactly, not only are you generalizing, but there are plenty of organizations and groups who rally against the issues you brought up. Now, you can come to terms with the fact the world isn't fair, and complete w*nkers come into power, or you can do your part and help a little...sitting on your butt and being apathetic about the state of the world won't get you, or anyone else, anywhere.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but don't you think all the people who have responded, have thought about the issues you've brought up, have been completely incensed by certain issues, and have tried to do their part ?

 

I've read somewhere that we have the same instincts as a chimpanzee and other primates, but we also have hugely more power.

 

That sounds a little contradictory to your first sentence.

[Reaper]

What makes you think humans don't behave, due to a set of laws ?

 

What I meant is that most things you see in the universe don't happen out of malice, or apathy, etc. For example, when an earthquake happens, it is not intentional. Supernova's don't wipe out entire star systems because they hated them. They just happen because of stuff like plate techtonics, low fuel, etc.

 

Human nature on the other hand is a rather different story. The physical laws that govern us do not impede our ability to understand what they are, use them to make tools, food, weapons etc. and more importantly whether actions are right or wrong and to act accordingly. And, humans also behave due to their emotions, desires, etc.

 

 

Who's 'we' exactly, not only are you generalizing, but there are plenty of organizations and groups who rally against the issues you brought up.

 

1) I said "we humans", and except for the mentally unstable, the vast majority of us do have the capability to do what I just said earlier.

 

2) I am well aware of that. Their effectiveness remains to be seen (depending on which ones your talking about of course). Also keep in mind that there are also organizations who specifically intend to impede and undermine their good intentions too. And also keep in mind that some of these organizations do sometimes resort to otherwise immoral acts in order to prove their point. Actions speak louder then words, and have much more of an impact.

 

 

or you can do your part and help a little...

 

Now, what makes you think I don't do that? Just because I'm pessimisic about things doesn't mean that I don't do anything I can about these various issues.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but don't you think all the people who have responded, have thought about the issues you've brought up, have been completely incensed by certain issues, and have tried to do their part ?

 

That has crossed my mind. But I'm not talking about those people. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I posted this in the first place, to see how you guys would respond.

 

That sounds a little contradictory to your first sentence.

 

How?

[Norman Albers]

Powerful discussions! Once sitting in the yard I watched as a neighbor's dog caught and gave a bad time to a mouse. He was a smart dingo dog whose character I liked (as a visitor), but what followed was ?!?!? He crunched a few times on the mouse, who was then not further moving. Then he just kind of played with it, batting it around on the grass. Then, grasping the tail in his teeth, he flung it into the sky two feet up. This was repeated for a while. I'm sitting there watching this poor tortured or dead, I hope, mouse, cartwheeling against the sky, and saying to myself not much!!!!!!!!!!

[iNow]

Lockheed,

 

I imagine you're getting several more responses than you originally anticipated, no?

 

 

Remember, the world is just a reflection of yourself. If you have a problem with the world, then you have a problem with something within you. Focus on that, since that's the only thing you truly have enough control to fix.

[ParanoiA]

Well, it's kind of snowballed on him. It was a rant he wanted to get off his chest, blow off some steam - not an exercise in misery and depression. At least that's how I read it.

[iNow]

Yeah... I tend to ebb and flow into and out of that same mind set every once in a while myself, too.

[Glider]

Right but the OP is lamenting about these constructs, so I was just trying to make the point that rather than see everything as "instinctive good, doing bad things" that perhaps it should be better viewed as "instinctive bad, doing good things".

Yes, but the OP is only lamenting humanity, not the whole of nature.

 

The things he sees as so rotten in this world are found in all of nature, not just mankind. And it's only mankind that has the ability to empathize and construct ideas of moral and ethical behavior and then judge that nature.

I don't see that really. The things Lockheed mentions specifically seem unique to humanity as far as I can see:

But then, I starting reading about CIA backed terrorism, the Catholic Church's effort to block AIDS awareness, rampant racism and sexism (or racist attitudes) that exists all over the world including in the U.S., those despicable oil for food programs (and the fact that we are really doing nothing other than throwing bread crumbs at third world countries in general...), political correctness, global warming denial, human right atrocities committed by all nations, the backing of dictatorships in the name of democracy and freedom, various movements and groups claiming to be moral and doing the exact opposite (e.g. animal rights activists committing acts of sabotage) and, and, well, you get the point.

 

I don't quite agree with you here. While this sort of mindset would definitely be appropriate for nonliving things and processes, I would not hesitate to apply so-called "human contructs" to animals.

I think it’s entirely meaningless to apply such constructs, particularly those relating to morality, to species other than humans.

 

And as for predators being sadistic, well, I'm pretty certain that they do get some enjoyment out of killing their prey.

I doubt it. Hunting is extremely hard work, extremely dangerous and more often than not unsuccessful (the precise failure : success ratio depends on the species).

 

When successful, a predator will get the basic reward (in the biological sense) from the successful completion of a motivated behaviour and the negative reinforcement that follows (removal of hunger), but enjoyment? I doubt there’s much time for that. Once a kill has been made, there’s usually a race to eat as much as possible before the kill is taken by other predators and scavengers.

 

Life in nature is a knife edge; a fine balance between success and failure. Enjoyment is an indulgence that most animals can’t afford. I doubt any predator ‘enjoys’ its success any more than any prey animal ‘enjoys’ its escape in an unsuccessful hunt. It usually gets back to the business of eating asap to replenish the energy expended during the hunt.

[ParanoiA]

I don't see that really. The things Lockheed mentions specifically seem unique to humanity as far as I can see:

 

That's true if you're doing a 1:1 comparison. However, when we talk about racism, sexism, oil for food gone bad, CIA intrustion and etc - these are all just complicated derivatives of self interested in-group/out-group (pack) behavior - sophisticated predatory pack animals.

 

Yes, but the OP is only lamenting humanity, not the whole of nature.

 

Right, and I'm including the whole of nature to make the point that we are no exception, in terms of behavior, but quite the exeption in terms of constructing notions of morality in relation to this behavior. If anything, we are wonderful creatures because we have the ability to loathe oursevles, and thus, change. (Or be depressed about it...)

[Phi for All]

What I meant is that most things you see in the universe don't happen out of malice, or apathy, etc. For example, when an earthquake happens, it is not intentional. Supernova's don't wipe out entire star systems because they hated them. They just happen because of stuff like plate techtonics, low fuel, etc.

 

Human nature on the other hand is a rather different story. The physical laws that govern us do not impede our ability to understand what they are, use them to make tools, food, weapons etc. and more importantly whether actions are right or wrong and to act accordingly. And, humans also behave due to their emotions, desires, etc.

It's the differences in our perspectives that make seemingly disparate things seem equally correct. Aggressive posturing can seem warlike but often leads to less war through intimidation. Every action will harm some as it helps others.

 

Now, what makes you think I don't do that? Just because I'm pessimisic about things doesn't mean that I don't do anything I can about these various issues.

Advocacy is pretty effective medicine for depression. I'm trying to clear my slate a bit to make room for a some stumping for HR 676, the new proposed national medical insurance bill. It's something the US needs imo and it will be an uphill battle all the way. We'll be fighting some of the very people and corporations who help make the world a fearful, unhealthy and depressing place (because that's where the money is).

 

Should be great fun!