foodchain Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I honestly don’t know if this is a simple question. Can something exist that has no thermodynamic potential or signature of any kind? I mean I was just thinking about dark matter/energy for whatever it is, and I don’t know for sure but I don’t think such has any thermodynamic anything to it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 You mean, can something exist without energy and disobeying the laws of thermodynamics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foodchain Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 You mean, can something exist without energy and disobeying the laws of thermodynamics? Yes, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Yes, I guess... Well basically no! Energy is a characteristic of matter. AFAIK and I'm quite sure that there cannot be matter without energy. And also there is no good reason that energy might disobey laws of TD. Everything in our physical world must obey to the laws of physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 You'd have interactions that followed general relativity, and all of the relevant formulations of thermodynamic potentials. I'd imagine that writing them down would be exceedingly messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 You'd have interactions that followed general relativity, and all of the relevant formulations of thermodynamic potentials. I'd imagine that writing them down would be exceedingly messy. Oh Tom, that is just a fancy way of saying "it's hard to happen"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foodchain Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 You'd have interactions that followed general relativity, and all of the relevant formulations of thermodynamic potentials. I'd imagine that writing them down would be exceedingly messy. For me currently it would be impossible as I would have to clue how to go about such, but I would have to agree that it probably is greater then what we can muster computationally really huh? Well basically no! Energy is a characteristic of matter. AFAIK and I'm quite sure that there cannot be matter without energy. And also there is no good reason that energy might disobey laws of TD. Everything in our physical world must obey to the laws of physics. Right but we don’t know everything yet. As for the laws of physics having to govern everything well QM dominates on a matter scale that must mean it governs biological evolution, some possible way to fold into the vacuum state! No really though dark matter/energy is relatively new and controversial, so its neat. Its just that some people state, professional scientists I think that such can only be detected via gravity, so does that make gravity a thermodynamic force? Else I think it should have some kind of a physical thermodynamic signature right? I don’t think quantum entanglement does either and tunneling is weird to me thermodynamically as it seems to allow for something to overcome a barrier it classically should be forbidden from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Right but we don’t know everything yet. As for the laws of physics having to govern everything well QM dominates on a matter scale that must mean it governs biological evolution, some possible way to fold into the vacuum state! No really though dark matter/energy is relatively new and controversial, so its neat. Its just that some people state, professional scientists I think that such can only be detected via gravity, so does that make gravity a thermodynamic force? Else I think it should have some kind of a physical thermodynamic signature right? I don’t think quantum entanglement does either and tunneling is weird to me thermodynamically as it seems to allow for something to overcome a barrier it classically should be forbidden from. Yes yes, you got a point. But my post refers to what we know so far. We can't really predict what will we discover in the future, so we're talking by 'nowdays' science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foodchain Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 Yes yes, you got a point. But my post refers to what we know so far. We can't really predict what will we discover in the future, so we're talking by 'nowdays' science. Right, and we are. I mean lets just say dark matter or dark energy was the topic, my question would be does it have any thermodynamic attribute at all physically? I think its a perfectly healthy question really, quite simple I would think save I don’t know the answer, I also don’t know the latest research on the topic or where to even look. I do think that current opinion for general consumption on the subject has it as only visible physically via interaction with gravity, which sounds odd to say the least, but that’s normal right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Right, and we are. I mean lets just say dark matter or dark energy was the topic, my question would be does it have any thermodynamic attribute at all physically? I think its a perfectly healthy question really, quite simple I would think save I don’t know the answer, I also don’t know the latest research on the topic or where to even look. I do think that current opinion for general consumption on the subject has it as only visible physically via interaction with gravity, which sounds odd to say the least, but that’s normal right? I'm not a physics expert, but I believe judging by the adjective "dark" we don't exactly know what kind of matter that is. What are its main characteristics? How would it behave in an earth-like conditions? Would it disobey the current known laws of physics, or it behaves in such way that we not yet know? Would the laws of TD apply to it? I know that this is not the subject of the thread, but what I'm trying to say is that it is on human nature to always want to know more. Questions like your question in the beginning, and my questions in this post are a result of a deeper thinking and a scientific sense. There is always a wish to know more than current knowledge. Even though we want to know more and more, we can only give answers depending on what we currently know, and by this point of view, the answer to your question in the beginning would be that it is hard to imagine matter without energy! (I know this is not what you exactly meant). I am saying hard to imagine with the purpose of leaving space for some doubt. We are all witnesses of how fast science has developed through this last century, and maybe a year from now scientists might come up with something like "energyless matter" and what would I say then? I know what you are trying to say, and I agree! We should raise big questions if we want to come up with big answers! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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