Dragons???

[Gorodir]

Yesterday I watched a documentary by a respectable channel that "proved" the existence of dragons in the past, is the theory approved in paleontology?

 

(sorry about my english, I'm greek)

[thedarkshade]

Dragons as creatures that pour fire out of their mouth, have a 'snake' body with legs, and have wings so they can fly, are really mythical creatures.

 

I made a google search right now and all I got was "fantasy, mythical, fiction, legends .." and stuff like this.

 

But is there a link you could post where could see what you mean by "proved'?

[Daecon]

"The Flight of Dragons" is a pretty cool theoretical evolution of Dragons, supposing they really did exist.

 

A review of the book.

[insane_alien]

dragons as in komodo dragons exist. but these are nothing like the dragons of legend. more like overgrown lizards.

[Mr Skeptic]

Dragons seem to be a very widespread myth. Also, ancient dragon myths didn't always have the fire-breathing dragons with the stubby wings that wouldn't get them anywhere (sometimes they didn't have any wings). Some dragons spat acid or poison. Many (most?) didn't have wings. If a dinosaur were alive in a culture that had dragon myths, it would be called a dragon (the name "dinosaur" is very new).

 

It's entirely conceivable that dragon myths are based on dinosaurs. Perhaps not even on live dinosaurs, but dinosaur bones would work as well. Some reptiles were able to spit poison, but I don't know of any that could breathe fire. The bombardier beetle is able to sqirt steam out its behind.

 

Also, if you care, the bible describes what appear to be dragons or dinosaurs in Job 40

[Sayonara]

Also, if you care, the bible describes what appear to be dragons or dinosaurs in Job 40

Job 40 describes something so vague it could be any kind of large animal. The idea that it describes a dinosaur or dragon is an interpretive choice on the part of the reader.

 

Look at the behemoth' date=' which I made along with you, and which feeds on grass like an ox.

What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly!

His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.[/quote']

[Mr Skeptic]

Ooops, sorry, I meant Job 41:

 

1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me? Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle? Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him. The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. Nothing on earth is his equal—a creature without fear. He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

 

Seems like a large, strong, highly-armored, fire-breathing, reptilian aquatic creature.

[Klaynos]

Yesterday I watched a documentary by a respectable channel that "proved" the existence of dragons in the past, is the theory approved in paleontology?

 

(sorry about my english, I'm greek)

 

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what program you're talking about here and have seen it before.

 

It's a spoof.

[Gorodir]

Dragons as creatures that pour fire out of their mouth, have a 'snake' body with legs, and have wings so they can fly, are really mythical creatures.

 

I made a google search right now and all I got was "fantasy, mythical, fiction, legends .." and stuff like this.

 

But is there a link you could post where could see what you mean by "proved'?

 

I checked my TVguide but unfortunetly it had no reference, not even the english title. But what I watched was the first part so I'll wait for the second part and see what I can find.

 

The documentary described the attempts of a young paleontologist I think in colorado museum (could be california, it definetly started with a C) to prove his unapproved theory. Then they find a well-preserved body of a 'dragon' in Romania and he makes some tests. So in the end it claims that it retained hydrogen in glands which gave it a lifting force, and it could use the hydrogen together with methane as fuel to pour fire.

[Realitycheck]

Originally Posted by Job 41

 

1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me? Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle? Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him. The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. Nothing on earth is his equal—a creature without fear. He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

 

This sounds like a highly embellished, totally scary, temporarily harnessed, yet out-of-control, lowly whale - after the story has been passed around at 50 different pubs for about 500 years.

[Sayonara]

Ooops, sorry, I meant Job 41:

Seems like a large, strong, highly-armored, fire-breathing, reptilian aquatic creature.

The writer of the passage is imagining how god might describe "the pride of the fleet" as far as his creations go, in a conversation with another character which has a particular point to make. He is using whatever powerful imagery comes to mind based off stories he has heard himself, limited knowledge of oceanic life, and mythical beasts.

 

That does not even break the anecdote boundary. It is utterly, irrevocably, FICTION.

 

Unless there is a valid academic point to be made here, and not simply "someone said god once mentioned something like a dragon so they must exist", can we please not bring religious texts into the GS forum.

[Mr Skeptic]

It's just a point about how widespread dragonlore is throughout the world. There are dragon stories in China too, but the Chinese dragons are different.

[thedarkshade]

There are dragon stories in China too, but the Chinese dragons are different.

They were (are???) considered as protectors from the demons in China. They even have the year of Dragon!

[iNow]

Human imagination + Knowledge sharing through story telling + patial and incomplete data regarding dinosaurs, fossils, and birds = Widespread dragon myths.

 

 

Hmmm... I sure hope I didn't forget to carry the one.

[Klaynos]

Douglas Adams has an interesting point to make about Dragons (fictional), when he visits the Komodo dragons... in last chance to see... I would tell you what it is but I think it's such an awesome book you should all read it

[stevo247]

Here's an interesting take on the origin of the dragon myth:

 

http://home.swbell.net/a1star1/

[thedarkshade]

Here's an interesting take on the origin of the dragon myth:

 

http://home.swbell.net/a1star1/

OGM... this is freaky funny. See what imagination leads too?!?!?!

[CDarwin]

It's just a point about how widespread dragonlore is throughout the world. There are dragon stories in China too, but the Chinese dragons are different.

 

That's a bit of an artifact of perception. When Europeans heard the Chinese stories of big reptiley things they thought, "Hey! Dragon!" That's like identifying Australian aboriginal stories about kangaroos with Brier Rabbit.

 

There are lots of accounts of big, scary reptiles, that seems to be a phobia of humanity's, but few of them are consistent either with each other or with any creatures known from the fossil record. Dragons are usually massive, serpent-like things, for which there is no good analogue for in any known animal, living or extinct.

[Daecon]

I checked my TVguide but unfortunetly it had no reference, not even the english title. But what I watched was the first part so I'll wait for the second part and see what I can find.

 

The documentary described the attempts of a young paleontologist I think in colorado museum (could be california, it definetly started with a C) to prove his unapproved theory. Then they find a well-preserved body of a 'dragon' in Romania and he makes some tests. So in the end it claims that it retained hydrogen in glands which gave it a lifting force, and it could use the hydrogen together with methane as fuel to pour fire.

 

It sounds like it was a TV show based on Peter Dickinson's book "The Flight of Dragons" made into the style of a documentary?

[coregazer]

The documentary described the attempts of a young paleontologist I think in colorado museum (could be california, it definetly started with a C) to prove his unapproved theory. Then they find a well-preserved body of a 'dragon' in Romania and he makes some tests. So in the end it claims that it retained hydrogen in glands which gave it a lifting force, and it could use the hydrogen together with methane as fuel to pour fire.

 

iv also heard of varius validations that "fire breathing" dragons MAY of existed on an old childrens science programme known as "the big bang" or somthing similer. (This is much older than the comady programme, "the big bang theory". just so you are not mistake )

[JohnB]

Gorodir, I have a copy of a very similar program. It's called "Dragon's World".

 

For those who haven't seen it, it's from Animal Planet with the CGI done by the guys from "Walking With Dinosaurs". It's done in the style of a documentary and frankly if you didn't know it was a "What if", you'd be convinced.

 

Right up to the end where there is a re-enactment of knights fighting the last dragon. It goes into their mating and nesting habits, a truly stunning work of fiction. Watch the short film at the link and you'll see what I mean.

That's a bit of an artifact of perception. When Europeans heard the Chinese stories of big reptiley things they thought, "Hey! Dragon!"

The fact the Chinese called those big reptiley things "Dragons" was just a co-incidence? Dragon legends are also found in North and South America and Australia.

 

Alexander The Great saw a Dragon in India according to the biography by Ptolomy. Herodotus writes of seeing serpent bones of unusual size in Egypt. Aldrovandus wrote of obtaining the body of a small dragon in 1640.

 

What do I make of the above? Not much, but I wouldn't write it off as mere legend either. Australia had 10 metre long lizards still living as little as 10,000 years ago. I would suspect that "Dragons" may have been the last survivors of that era. Just bloody big lizards whose reputation and abilities grew with telling over time.

 

(With the stories of the Ropen and similar creatures continuing into the late 20th century I still hold the faint dream that maybe, against all odds, a pterosaur or two might have survived. What a wonder that would be.)

[Phi for All]

The fact the Chinese called those big reptiley things "Dragons" was just a co-incidence?

They called them lung, actually (phonetically speaking). And the closest translation was... dragon.

[CDarwin]

The fact the Chinese called those big reptiley things "Dragons" was just a co-incidence?[/Quote]

 

The Chinese didn't call them dragons, later translators did.

 

Dragon legends are also found in North and South America and Australia.[/Quote]

 

If you want to call those "dragons," yes.

 

What do I make of the above? Not much, but I wouldn't write it off as mere legend either. Australia had 10 metre long lizards still living as little as 10,000 years ago. I would suspect that "Dragons" may have been the last survivors of that era. Just bloody big lizards whose reputation and abilities grew with telling over time.

 

I don't "write off" dragon stories either in a dismissive sense. They indicate something interesting about the human view of nature. Dragons (and their similar legends) combine contrasting images that rarely exist together in nature. In one part you have the sneaky, repulsive serpent and in the other a wild, untamed beast.

 

There's nothing that quite combines those connotations as well as a giant reptile. It's no wonder cultures all over the world developed stories about them.

 

I'm not a big fan of the "kernel of truth inside every legend" hypothesis. It neglects the human imagination. Some "dragon" stories probably were inspired by encounters with actual giant reptiles, but its more than possible that a great number of them just developed spontaneously.