Norman Albers Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 BOYCOTT CHINA OLYMPICS. Mod Note: This is a new Tibet discussion thread. I pulled the most relevent posts from the previous thread, which will be removed. Post away.
Pangloss Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 Seems unlikely, but I'd love to hear a good case for it, for the sake of discussion. It was wildly unpopular when Carter did it in 1980 (which, ironically, China participated in). The public perception was that it hurt US atheletes while accomplishing nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_boycott_of_the_1980_Summer_Olympics
ecoli Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 well how would an olympic boycott hurt? We're talking about not as many foreigners coming, so we're talking lost tourism? Besides for publicity, are there any other economic affects?
Realitycheck Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 How many times has China ever kneeled down to the sentiment of the rest of the worlds' protests? Why do they even have Olympics in China?
CDarwin Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 well how would an olympic boycott hurt? We're talking about not as many foreigners coming, so we're talking lost tourism? Besides for publicity, are there any other economic affects? It would be a humiliation for the Chinese. They want a clean, totally legitimate Olympics.
ecoli Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 This thread has been pruned. I think this is an important topic with the potential for much valuable discussion. Let's fulfill that potential. Norman - This is the first I've heard about riots and deaths. I'd like to learn more. I'm studying Chinese right now and will be going for work on numerous occasions to the mainland in the near future. Can you share a link so I can read more about the problems which have made you so understandably upset? I'd like to learn more myself. Thanks in advance for any help with specifics. well this is the recent news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/7297911.stm For a history of the conflict, I'm sure wikipedia has a complete page on it. Make a statement, or don't. After three days of public riots and burnings of shops and police cars now at least thirty people are dead and 30 tanks have rolled in. If Public Radio is wrong I will apologize. Not saying these things don't happen, but the important conversation is, while boycotting the Olympics actually solve anything?
iNow Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Thanks, ecoli. I agree that boycotting the olympics is a bit like putting a band-aid on your ankle to treat a heart attack... There are some serious issues to be resolved. In addition to the trouble in Tibet where Chinese officials are forcably trying to regain control, Tibetan exiles in Tel Aviv are protesting, Tibetans in New York are protesting and being arrested by NYPD, and similar outbursts appear to be cropping up in Great Britain. Clearly, to solve this problem is going to take more than a boycott of the olympics (which would only hurt the athletes anyway)... So, what can we do? Norman, you opened the thread... any ideas?
ecoli Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 exactly right, paranioA. I don't see us halting purchases from china any time soon either. Unless we drastically change our lifestyle, because there really aren't too many other places where we could get alternative goods is such large quantities (not that I know of, anyway). And even if we tried it, we could wind up hurting our and the global economy. The fact the we're China's #1 trading partner is helping keep the dollar afloat, and the reason they're still trading oil in dollars.
Pangloss Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 We're definitely in a bind when it comes to pressuring China on specifics. In general the relationship is definitely a two-way street (they don't want to anger us either). But they're pretty good at playing hardball, and can take a punch a lot better than we can. Boycott the Olympics and we're likely to find the dollar slipping even lower against the yuan, which we've been asking them recently to devalue.
Sisyphus Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 I believe that the best thing we can do for Tibet is to help liberalize China, and the best way to do that is to continue doing what we're doing: trading with them and encouraging cultural exchange, so the Chinese can see for themselves the advantages of capitalism and the free exchange of ideas, and so they want to be peaceful and cooperative in international affairs because it has proven to be so advantageous for them to do so. They voluntarily let foreign inspectors in their factories. Why? Not because we threatened them, but because they want to sell things to us, and to do that they have to demonstrate that they meet our standards. War against, say, the United States, is basically unthinkable. Why? Not because we dominate them militarily, but because they have become so prosperous in their peaceful relationship with us. As was mentioned above, we're not exactly in a position to turn away from China, ourselves, but even if we could, we shouldn't, since that would only give them an excuse to be regressive and aggressive. Take a look at the last fifty years of Cuban history for the extreme ineffectiveness of that sort of approach.
Pangloss Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 I think that's an excellent point. In fact, the recent unrest seems to support the notion that that approach is actually working. China was unable to keep cell phone video of the rioting off the Internet, for example -- with success comes transparency, whether the government likes it or not. China already has the largest middle class in the world, but has only managed to "upgrade" maybe a quarter or a fifth of its population to that level thus far. The rest of those people want the same success, and it's the biggest tiger that any government has ever had by the tail. They know they have to keep going and cannot crash back to the kind of society they used to have. We can continue to help them in two ways: Encouraging them when they get it right, and discouraging them when they get it wrong. Yes, that makes us complicit when they get it wrong. But it beats the alternatives, and it also means we're complicit when they get it right.
ParanoiA Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Great post Sisyphus. Tried to give you some rep but it said I had to spread it around first. At this point, I'm not thinking a boycott is a smart approach. But then, the level of violence could change all that.
Realitycheck Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 I just don't understand why Tibet is so important to China. It doesn't exactly hold lots of strategical value. Free Tibet! Life goes on and they don't have to worry about poor repercussions. Makes sense to me, but then why do we fight so ardently to protect the Aleutian Islands? Well, maybe there is lots of mining value.
ecoli Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 I just don't understand why Tibet is so important to China. It doesn't exactly hold lots of strategical value. Free Tibet! Life goes on and they don't have to worry about poor repercussions. Makes sense to me, but then why do we fight so ardently to protect the Aleutian Islands? Well, maybe there is lots of mining value. I'm assuming it's nationalism thing. There's this Chinese girl at my school who routinely goes on tirades in person, and posting messages on facebook about how Tibet is a rebellious territory, who need to be controlled and the rebellion squashed. She talks about China as if it's some sort of Garden of Eden, filled with a superior race (not in those exact words though). Of course, she has a whole extra set of special psychological issues. edit: you know, now that I think of it, I haven't seen that girl all semester. I wonder if she finally cracked.
Phi for All Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 Just so you people would have trooped to the Olympics in BERLIN, 1936. How would you have felt about this in 1946?I think you're Begging the Question here, Norman Albers. You are assuming that disapproving a boycott of the Olympics is approving China's stance on Tibet. I think most have made it clear that no one approves of China's human rights violations but are questioning whether a boycott of the Olympics would have the desired affect. I remember when one of the politicians went on a rampage about the price of breakfast cereal, which was about $4 per pound at the time. There was talk of boycott then, too. Eventually the cereal companies caved in and reduced the price almost in half. Everyone was ecstatic. So ecstatic we didn't see the price of bread almost triple within the next two years. And by the time we did realize, cereal was back up to the $4/lb mark. I believe in the power of boycotting but you need to make sure the effect is the one you want.
iNow Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 I see you people milling around like a bunch of castrati. I printed large letters on the back of my car, "BOYCOTT CHINA OLYMPICS". I am returning an unopened pair of shoes and will happily spend twice the price because I cannot wear Chinese shoes now. I have planned an effective graffitum in the middle of a local city. . . .I just found an unused FREE TIBET bumper sticker which should surprise a resident Chinese citizen. While I appreciate your conviction and passion, I think that changing things and boycotting products themselves may be harder than you think. Last July there was a good story on NPR Morning Edition. An author and her family went an entire year without purchasing anything made in China, or anything which contained ingredients from China. Check it out: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12056295 A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy chronicles how Sara Bongiorni and her family tried to live without buying anything produced in China. The 3 or 4 minute story is also worth a listen: http://www.npr.org/templates/dmg/popup.php?id=12056298&type=1&date=18-Jul-2007&au=1&pid=52444122&random=2444375527&guid=00020AFB3404064A22C1C64B61626364&uaType=WM,RM&aaType=RM,WM&upf=Win32&topicName=Business&subtopicName=Economy&prgCode=ME&hubId=-1&thingId=12056295&ssid=&tableModifier=&mtype=WM Here's the book itself, which may open your eyes: http://www.amazon.com/Year-Without-Made-China-Adventure/dp/0470116137/
John Cuthber Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 I wonder if anyone else noticed this snippet from the IOC's post about not boycotting " "We believe that the boycott doesn't solve anything," Rogge told reporters on this Caribbean island." I'm not sure they count as a disinterested party. On the other hand, while I can see that a boycot would upset athletes and sports viewers, I think a government that doesn't mind running the odd student over with a tank wouldn't give a damn about an olympic boycot. If you want to get China's attention stop buying cheap consumer goods from them.
Phi for All Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 You people do not acknowledge the power of a large wave of sentiment expressed effectively.I think that's EXACTLY what we're questioning here, Norman Albers, the effectiveness of what you're suggesting. You are assuming a boycott would be effective and we're not. The tidal wave of sentiment is a powerful thing, but it hasn't proven effective with the Chinese. In fact, much like Japan, I think China digs its feet in when it feels the West is dictating to it. China obviously has plans laid for the future of Tibet (China made it a crime to reincarnate without permission from the government, effectively insuring there can be no new Dalai Lama) so to be effective any surge of effort should take this into account. China needs to join the 21st century when it comes to humanitarian actions, but I think it's a mistake to assume the same things motivate them in the same ways. I'd get behind an effort to lead them towards a more civilized treatment of their people but I'm pretty sure boycotting the Olympics is not the right way. The Olympics should be about athletes and athleticism, not politics.
John Cuthber Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 From Norman "In my New York, the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls, and tenement halls... (Paul Simon)" I think using Paul Simon lyrics as an excuse for petty vandalism is a new debating trick. *(BTW, do you know if the guy concerned is any happier about his country's government than you are?) However it doesn't answer the question. Why do you think the Chinese government (as opposed to some of the people) will give a damn if, for example, the USA or UK boycot the olympic games? * Actually, I think it's just a straight non sequitur, but where's the fun in that?
Pangloss Posted March 18, 2008 Posted March 18, 2008 Mod Note: This is a new Tibet discussion thread. I pulled the most relevent posts from the previous thread, which will be removed. Post away.
Phi for All Posted March 18, 2008 Posted March 18, 2008 Didn't China promise to clean up its act if the IOC awarded the games to Beijing, and didn't the IOC, in turn, promise to monitor China's human rights status? After spending billions it would serve the Chinese right if the IOC went with an alternate site. According to this probably biased site, the US is already slapping China in the "face" by housing and training their Olympics teams... in Japan. Supposedly Beijing is too polluted and its food too suspect for foreign athlete's delicate diets. I wish Norman Albers would have given us some of the info he obviously got hold of. I really don't like the thought of trusting China to clean up its treatment of people and animals and then let them displace and imprison so many of them in order to host the Olympics. I still think having Western reporters in Beijing writing stories about what they see is better than a boycott but I also think what happens with China *after* the Olympics will be the real story. Reporters Without Borders is calling for a boycott of the opening ceremony at the Olympics. This would have the benefit of embarrassing the Chinese and sending a message about their human rights violations without denying the athletes a chance to compete. This would be a good alternative to a total boycott, imo.
Pangloss Posted March 18, 2008 Posted March 18, 2008 The idea is apparently getting some traction in European politics, with the French forign minister weighing in on the "pro" side today and notable Germans apparently considering it as well. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/asia/react.php
iNow Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 While we all want China to change for the better, pissing all over them in a moment of pride like the Olypics is not likely the best way to accomplish that. Every person I've spoken to from China these past several months asks me excitely if I'll get the chance to "go to China this summer to see the Olympics!" It's not "China" we have a problem with, as there are about a billion peole there who are pretty cool. It's the tiny handful in control of the nation who need to "be handled."
Pangloss Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Nothing? Would YOU try to take oil away from China?
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