Tibet Discussion Thread (Pruned and Open)

[ParanoiA]

iNow, No. This morning a news commentator on NPR acknowledged China as the world gold medal winner in executions, quite a few thousand.

 

 

 

I get banned while this ugliness stands? I am losing respect for this site.

 

I think iNow is testing the establishment. Don't lose respect for the site, I think they're just trying keep their hands off. iNow is highly emotionally driven and frequently deteriorates to name calling and childish insults when someone won't accept his point. People aren't perfect, not even psychologists.

 

By the way, I was watching some documentary last night about organ donation and the thousands of people on waiting lists and how some are working around it by going to China to get organs and transplants. They mentioned that China had executed close to 10,000 people in one year. And that's how they were harvesting so many organs. Shocking. Truly shocking.

[Norman Albers]

Thank you, ParanoiA.

[iNow]

Oh yeah! Well... well... you're a stupid head, paranoiA, and you smell like poopy.

 

I simply want an answer to the question. Thanks for painting me some immature child unable to comprehend logic and rationality, when those are the two points I've been questioning and asking about all along.

 

What makes the boycott an effective approach?

What will be the outcome of a boycott, beside a misplaced penalty on the athletes themselves?

 

 

Oh, and I'm no psychologist. Far from it, actually.

[Mr Skeptic]

Since Norman Albers doesn't seem to want to answer, I will answer on his behalf. If he feels I have misrepresented him, he is of course free to actually answer.

 

What makes the boycott an effective approach?

 

Cause he hates China.

 

What will be the outcome of a boycott, beside a misplaced penalty on the athletes themselves?

 

Huh? There's athletes?

[ParanoiA]

Oh yeah! Well... well... you're a stupid head, paranoiA, and you smell like poopy.

 

Oh yeah! Well poopy washes off but stupid is forever. Wait a minute...uh..

 

Thank you, ParanoiA.

 

Thank us all by answering iNow's questions. They are very fundamental and Mr Skeptic is destroying your position.

[Phi for All]

Evil isn't some huge entity like a China or an Islam or an ethnic group like Caucasians. Evil is the unabated flow of innumerable depravities perpetrated by narrow-minded people for whom any life but their own holds little meaning. The only rational way to deal with evil is to emphasize the consequences of the individual depravities and their good alternatives.

 

Boycotting the Olympics seems like withholding attention from my dog when he poops on the rug. He won't be certain why I'm not petting him, won't know if I'm angry or busy or indifferent. He won't make the connection unless I rub his nose in the poop.

[Norman Albers]

You people are offensive and stupid. Yesterday I finally returned my shoes to the Fred Meyers department store ($45). Three salespeople were quite receptive and we talked and I got my money back. Looking in the stock for shoes not made in CHINA, a patron helped me for a minute. I feel I had a very expressive day. . . .Last month I serviced a nice grand piano in the Presbyterian Church in town. Afterward in the office the pastor, assistant, regular secretary, and an assistant were present as I wrote out a bill. I took opportunity to say, I am more a Buddhist though the son of a Lutheran minister. I see important commonality of truth between them. The assistant said, yes but Jesus overcame death. I said, I don't care, and I walked out! This, after more than ten years of professional relationship. A few days later pastor called and left an apology on my phone message. MONEY TALKS AND YOU FOLKS ARE BEING CHICKENS*IT. Lest you think I have no appreciation for moderation, check this out from the petetion-signing organization: Dear Friends,

 

The Beijing Olympics are a crucial chance to persuade China's leaders to support dialogue and human rights in Tibet, as well as Burma and Darfur, and we need to seize it.

 

China wants the Olympics to be a coming out party for a newly modern, powerful, and respectable nation. But the Olympics are about humanity and excellence--we can't celebrate them in good conscience while ignoring the suffering of Tibetans and others.

 

So Avaaz is launching a major new campaign: SAVE THE OLYMPICS. We'll ask China to save the Olympics for all of us, by making specific, reasonable progress in dialogue with the Dalai Lama, securing release of Burmese and Tibetan political prisoners, and supporting peacekeeping in Darfur.

 

Our appeal will be placed on billboards and ads in major cities, in Chinese overseas publications, and we'll hire a Chinese language team to engage directly on China's lively blogs and in chatrooms. We need 10,000 donations from people from 100 countries to kickstart the campaign this week with a truly global sponsorship--click below to see the ads and donate whatever you can, however small:

 

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_the_olympics/3.php

 

Within China, where the Olympics were once seen as a victory for greater openness and internationalism, the internal debate has taken a bitter turn. Most Chinese are now growing angry over Olympic activism, seeing it as biased and "anti-Chinese."

 

If the games are a fiasco, China's repressive hardliners will win the day--and we could see the worst crackdown yet.

 

We need to stop this, and fast. So our campaign aims to reach out to China and Chinese people to show that we're not anti-China but pro-humanitarian, and that our desire is to save the 2008 Olympics, not ruin them. Click below to donate now:

 

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_the_olympics/3.php

 

The Slogan of the 2008 Olympics is "One World, One Dream". Let's reach across barriers of perception and division, and ask the Chinese to make this dream come true for us this summer.

 

With hope,

 

Ricken, Ben, Graziela, Galit, Pascal, Iain, Milena, Sabrina and the whole Avaaz Team.

 

PS – If you are new to Avaaz, we are a new global campaigning organization launched in January 2007 that has rapidly grown to over 3 million members in every nation on earth. The Economist magazine has written of the power of Avaaz to "Give world leaders a deafening wake up call", and we have been featured on the BBC talkshow HARDtalk. David Miliband, the UK foreign secretary, calls Avaaz "the best of the new in foreign policy". You can see the results of our last campaign fundraiser, on Burma here, and the results of our last campaign on climate change here, as well as other campaign results here. Avaaz Foundation is a legally registered non-profit organization. END QUOTE ALBERS: I do not necessarily agree with this analysis or espouse these goals but I respect them.

[Realitycheck]

On what basis do you think that the Dalai Lama and co. hold grounds to China's property?

[Norman Albers]

Agentchange, deal with it.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Please try to be more respectful.

[Norman Albers]

Cap'n, thank you. Today in New Delhi more than ten thousand police achieved an emptying of the streets.

[Mr Skeptic]

So, we need to boycott the China Olympics so that we can save the China Olympics?

[Norman Albers]

Ah, yes, now we are getting to deep philosophic masturbations. Have fun, Inow.

[Realitycheck]

Oh man, for some reason, I always thought that Tibet was this little token state like Lichtenstein, but this is one chunk of real estate.

 

It says here that King Gampo united many parts of the region way back in the 7th century. The title of the Dalai Lama was bestowed by one of the Khan dynasty upon the 3rd Dalai Lama in 1578. It was not until around the 1600's that the Dalai Lamas came to power as the predominant religious and administrative leader of this large chunk of land.

 

In 1911, the minority Qing dynasty, which had ruled China since 1644 and was the last dynasty to rule China, succombed to the Xhinhai revolution, which sent administration of the country through a rollercoaster until 1949, when the People's Republic of China was created. Tibet remained an independent state during this brief period from 1911 to 1949. The following year, China invaded the unprepared and unsuspecting Tibet, and forced the signing of the 17 point agreement.

 

In 1956, China declared that parts of Tibet were outside of the Dalai Lama's control and the land was redistributed from noblemen and monasteries to the serfs, which resulted in a revolution, supported by the CIA, in which tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed. By 1959, the rebellion was crushed and the Dalai Lama fled Tibet to set up his own govt. in absentia in India. Isolated resistance continued in Tibet until 1972, when the CIA withdrew its support.

 

In 2005, the Dalai Lama declared, "We are willing to be part of the People's Republic of China, to have it govern and guarantee to preserve our Tibetan culture, spirituality and our environment," but insisted on autonomy over religious and cultural affairs.

 

"In January 2007 the Dalai Lama, in an interview on a private television channel, said 'What we demand from the Chinese authority is more autonomy for Tibetans to protect their culture.' He added that he had told the Tibetan people not to think in terms of history and to accept Tibet as a part of China."

 

In 2008, this drama seems to be caused more by monks looking to draw attention than the Dalai Lama, though it would seem that China has an issue with his requests for more autonomy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_Autonomous_Region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_lama

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_Dynasty

 

2008 Tibetan unrest began with demonstrations on March 10, 2008 (Tibetan Uprising Day), the 49th anniversary of the failed 1959 Tibetan uprising against Beijing's rule. The protests and subsequent riots began when 300 monks demanded the release of other monks detained since last fall, but soon after, political demands surfaced and the protest turned violent.[1] Tibetans attacked non-Tibetan ethnic groups. Rioting, burning and looting began on March 14.[2] The violence was fuelled by rumors of killings, beatings and detention of monks by security forces in Lhasa this week.[2]

 

The unrest happened during the week when major local government leaders were away for the annual National People's Congress in Beijing. According to Wen Jiabao, the Premier of the People's Republic of China, attacks on non-Tibetan interests in the Tibet Autonomous Region and several other ethnic Tibetan areas occurred at about the same time as attacks on dozens of Chinese embassies and consulates.[3]

 

Wen Jiabao accused Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th and current Dalai Lama, of masterminding the violence,[3] while the Dalai Lama refuted this accusal, said that the uprisings were caused by wide discontent in Tibet.[4] The tension between these two key players leading up to the 2008 Olympics in Beijing has drawn significant international press coverage of alleged human rights violations by China.[5][6] The Dalai Lama claimed that he supports the Beijing Olympics, saying that it is "deserving for the Chinese people to host the Olympic Games",[7] but his envoy has called for the Chinese government to put an end to the military crackdown and drop Tibet from the Olympic torch route.[8][9]

 

Information is scarce because Chinese authorities have restricted the ability of foreign and Hong Kong media to enter and freely report on the region,[10] with the exception of James Miles, a correspondent from The Economist, who gained approval for a week-long trip which happened to coincide with the increase in tensions.[11][2] On March 27, following a promise by premier Wen Jiabao to allow the media back in as soon as practicable, the Chinese authorities organised a controlled tour of Lhasa by foreign media.[12] Chinese authorities have also reportedly attempted to block access to several major internet media outlets by Chinese citizens during the turmoil.[13][14]

Contents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet

 

Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, who earlier urged the world community to help end the turmoil, said he was following developments.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/080329/19/16atk.html

 

I had to dig deep for this one, but I think this is the story.

 

Chinese authorities in the western Tibetan Autonomous Region have detained two more monks who refused to take part in a political campaign, following clashes between local people and armed police, according to sources in the region.

 

“The monks were forced to sign and endorse criticisms of the Dalai Lama. If anyone chose not sign the document, they had to pay a fine of 10,000 yuan. But these two monks flatly refused to criticize the Dalai Lama, and claimed that they did not have 10,000 yuan,” the monk said. “So they were taken away, and nobody knows where they are detained.”

 

“Under the pressure of the campaign for reeducation, and investigations into the clashes between Tibetans and Han authorities in Baikar, most of the monks have left the monastery and returned home, leaving it completely deserted,” a Tibetan formerly employed at the monastery said.

 

“In response, the officials said that Baikar needs no monks, and that China needs no monks. They also bluntly informed the group that they had no right to appeal in support of those who were detained.”

 

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=Tibetan+Monks+Held+in+Wake+of+Clashes&id=18877

 

 

Sounds like China does not want to give them religious autonomy.

[Norman Albers]

yes

[iNow]

So, trying desperately to phrase this question cautiously...

 

How can we all work together to help make that happen? What specific actions can we take to achieve that end?

 

If you suggest only a boycott, I currently disagree with that approach, but remain ammenable to change my position. However, if I am to change my current stance and support a boycott of the Olympics to achieve this common end we seek, it would be advantageous to all of us to know why and how such a boycott will be effective.

[Pangloss]

The good Captain was talking to YOU, Norman.

 

You people are offensive and stupid.

 

Knock it off. Frankly I'm inclined to leave that line there just counter your immature claim that you were banned for no reason, but if you don't stop breaking the rules you're just going to end up staring at the login screen again. You've gotten some WIDE latitude here because, frankly, people like you and you're a valued member here. But you can't just go saying stuff like that and expect there to be no consequences.

[Realitycheck]

The Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, said on Friday he did not support a boycott of the Beijing Olympic Games.

 

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnN11432040.html

[Pangloss]

I figured he'd make a more direct statement on that eventually. Good catch.

[Realitycheck]

After reading this 17 Point Agreement better, it looks very Tibetan friendly and like China has literally walked all over it.

[Norman Albers]

Pangloss, I demand a society where attitudes and rules are applied equally around. Say what you've said to me also to iNow. As to the painful development of this thread, I have no further argument here. My politics is to choose any available means of saying NO to China. Find your own.

[iNow]

My politics is to choose any available means of saying NO to China.

So, yellow is the new black, eh?

 

Do you truly believe that it's so simple?

 

You blanketly state that you don't like China.

 

 

Please, Norman, will you elaborate as to why? I am not attacking you, but currently your comment appears nothing more than a generalization, and worse yet, racism. I am pleading with you to please prove my assumption wrong.

[Norman Albers]

iNow today on National Public Radio was a feature of a Chinese-American woman saying exactly what I laid out on nationalism. I have no thing more to say here. Figure it out. I'd rather be doing physics.

[iNow]

iNow today on National Public Radio was a feature of a Chinese-American woman saying exactly what I laid out on nationalism. I have no thing more to say here. Figure it out. I'd rather be doing physics.

 

This saddens me.

 

We agree on so much, yet you attack me personally.

 

What saddens me most is knowing that you are smarter than that, and that many others who are not as smart as you will take this issue even further than you have. We are one planet, and old labels of "us and them" no longer serve our mutual benefit.

[Norman Albers]

Phi for All, Rub his nose in the poop.