how were martial arts born.

[biggles]

neurocomp, I'm guessing you mean capoiera, which is a dance and game as much as fighting. It's pretty hard to tell, but it most likely came from dances that the slaves brought with them from Africa, IIRC mainly the Bantus. Of course I'm sure Monkey originally taught the Bantus.

 

Actually it came from Brasil although there is also Angola's capoeira. It appeared in 1500 in Brasil when it was still occupied by Portugal. It was the slave's that created it as a mean to defend themselves and it was masked as a dance because no fighting skills were allowed for them.

[biggles]

Well the Chinese invented them.

 

Actually it was an Indian by the name of Bodhidharma or Da Mo who brought the martial arts to China. He taught the shaolin monks a set of movements and exercises, copied from the animal movements to permit them to stay healthy and to defend themselves. When he got to the temple the monks were soo weak they could not go though medidation without falling asleep, they were phisycally week but very strong mentally. This set of movements was the base for the chinese boxing or kung fu shaolin as it's how it's better known. And it's from were all the other martial arts have descended.

[biggles]

It applies to all the martial arts that involve pressure points' date=' and that's most of them. It dosen't really apply to Tai Chi, for instance, as Tai Chi is a martial art that involves no kicks or strikes (nor is it really a martial art at all). The derivation of all martial arts comes from the same source, Karate from Shao Lin and Ninjitsu/Jujitsu from Budo Kai/Samurai.

 

The principles of breathing, balance and Ying/Yang, are something that you find common to all physical practice. Ask a sprinter how they breathe when they run, and sit down ready for a lecture.

 

And Karate originally meant Chinese Hand (Kara means Chinese or Empty and Te means Hand) in recognition of it's origin. It' only cropped up in the 1930's, and is the source of nothing new (apart from Chuck Norris, obviously).

 

Plus, Ninjitsu, bugger all to do with assasination. Assasins were sometimes Ninjas, but Ninjitsu is just a style of fighing. Samurai study it as well as 'Ninjas'. It's like saying Karate is a style of pub fight, if you see it in a pub.[/quote']

 

Karate was developed by the Japanese people. And Chuck Norris is actually a master of Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo not Karate although he entered many karate tournaments.

[biggles]

Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan are two different arts' date=' one is martial and the other Taoist health. Stick a master of Tai Chi into a fight, and they would lose.

 

Taoism btw, not Toaist [/quote']

 

Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan are the same. Chuan means fist but is used to identify a martial art. Tai Chi is a martial art with health care in mind. It allows it's practioners to develop concentration and phisical development. It uses Chi Kung exercises to direct and allow a more fluid Chi flowing. Among it's many benificts some muscles toning, flexibility, strenght and stimulation of the immune system so becoming an health system. Along with Chi Kung it's an important part of the traditional Chinese Medicine.

 

But as well as it health bennificts it also has an martial application, altough some Sifu's idenfity they're art as Tai Chi meaning that they only teach the health part not it's martial application. I guess that's what you meant. Altough Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan are only one art.

[biggles]

'Kung fu' means 'apptitude' or 'skill', but actually it's proper translation would be "kuo-shu".

 

Kung Fu acctualy means hard work, or skill gained through hard work. But it's acctually used in the same terms as wushu to refer to the chinese martial arts.

[Radical Edward]

Since there seem to be some experts here, does anyone know if there is any difference between the "wing Chun" and "Ng Mui" styles of Gong fu. I learned wing chun for some time while in London, and have been looking for it here in my new home, but cannot find it. there is a place nearby that foes Ng Mui, but I cannot seem to find much information about the style online. THe only link I can make is that Ng Mui was the nun who taught Wing Chun the style.

[atinymonkey]

Actually it was an Indian by the name of Bodhidharma or Da Mo who brought the martial arts to China.

Supposition, not fact. It's not very likely that one person is responsible. There are a thousand tales to account for the emergence. Not least of with was the mighty Monkey.

 

Kung Fu acctualy means hard work, or skill gained through hard work. But it's acctually used in the same terms as wushu to refer to the chinese martial arts.

 

Kuo-shu, not Kung Fu or wushu. As hard as it is to directly translate Chinese, it's harder still to guess which word was mistranslated as Kung Fu. It could have been the name of a goat, for all that we can reasonably presume.

Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan are the same. Chuan means fist but is used to identify a martial art. Tai Chi is a martial art with health care in mind.

 

So, you agree then. One's for fighting, one is not.

 

Karate was developed by the Japanese people. And Chuck Norris is actually a master of Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo not Karate although he entered many karate tournaments.

 

And was the US karate champion for quite a few years. I'd class that as 'a bit good' at karate. The Chuckster has studied a great number of martial arts, he even spend a week at the Dojo I was at in Ripon (Yambushi, UK).I'm not a Norris biography expert, but as I've studied in the same place as the man I'm going to trust my judgement on what he's good at.

 

Since there seem to be some experts here, does anyone know if there is any difference between the "wing Chun" and "Ng Mui" styles of Gong fu. I learned wing chun for some time while in London, and have been looking for it here in my new home, but cannot find it. there is a place nearby that foes Ng Mui, but I cannot seem to find much information about the style online. THe only link I can make is that Ng Mui was the nun who taught Wing Chun the style.

 

Wing Chun has the fighting, then the wooden dummy, stick and finally the butterfly knives. Ng Mui is based on the movements of the snake and crane, so is more druken master than Bruce Lee ( graceful movements and sudden strikes). I'd suggest the first is less likely to get you laughed at in a fight and easy to learn (although less effective).

[Radical Edward]

Kuo-shu' date=' not Kung Fu or wushu. As hard as it is to directly translate Chinese, it's harder still to guess which word was mistranslated as Kung Fu. It could have been the name of a goat, for all that we can reasonably presume.

[/quote']

 

my girlfriend (chinese) calls it Gong Fu. so who made the mistranslation and where?

 

thanks for the points on nug mui. do you know of anywhere where I can find out more about it online?

[atinymonkey]

Feh, specifics? Gong Fu is the Cantonese version of the Chinese (Kuo-shu or wushu etc) as the western alphabet wasn't in use it was a phonetic western version created by scholars in China around the 1900's.

 

There arn't too many good websites, as they are mostly websites from the schools preaching their own versions of whatever.

 

http://www.fongswingchun.com/history.html

 

http://www.wahlum.com/wah_lum_history.htm

 

See? Stupid, that there internet is.

[biggles]

So, you agree then. One's for fighting, one is not.

No, I agree that some use the name change to identify whether they teach the martial application or not altough there's only one art.

 

Wing Chun has the fighting, then the wooden dummy, stick and finally the butterfly knives. Ng Mui is based on the movements of the snake and crane, so is more druken master than Bruce Lee ( graceful movements and sudden strikes). I'd suggest the first is less likely to get you laughed at in a fight and easy to learn (although less effective).

I've never eard of Ng Mui martial art, but since the topic was related to Wing Chun, Ng Mui was also the name of the Shaolin nun who first taught the style to Yim Wing Chun.

More on the history can be found

here.

[Radical Edward]

Feh' date=' specifics? Gong Fu is the Cantonese version of the Chinese (Kuo-shu or wushu etc) as the western alphabet wasn't in use it was a phonetic western version created by scholars in China around the 1900's.

[/quote']

 

cantonese version of the chinese.... so it has gone from whatever it used to be in mandarin, to cantonese and then to mandarin?

[Radical Edward]

I am getting a bit confused about this nug mui now, it seems the club I am going to start at does the siu lim tao - definitely wing chun. I will keep you informed.

 

 

also, mod note: this is being moved into GD since it is not really appropriate to homework anymore.

[atinymonkey]

cantonese version of the chinese.... so it has gone from whatever it used to be in mandarin, to cantonese and then to mandarin?

 

Well, there's a sort of elitism with cantonese. It's the launguage of choice for the ruling classes in feudal Japan, Mandarin being the laungage used by the serfs. So technically cantonese should be used by scholars when used as reference, rather than Manderin. But as the whole use of the term Kung Fu is a mistranslation and misuse of a descriptive phrase it rather depends on which definition westerners like to use. More or less the term Kung Fu is an Americanism nowadays, but I wouldn't argue the point with a Martial Art's instructor much unless they are aware of the origins, a meathead from the west end might just get offended. If it's a chinese national, it might be an interesting conversation.

[moonriver]

Kung Fu is just a part of the chinese martial art. In china, martial art has developed to an extremely complicated level, even the hand shape can consist of dozens of different type to cause different damages. Nobody knows, i believe, how many kinds of martial arts exist in china. As for japenese karate, ninjutsu etc, they were all derived from chinese martial art with japenese own development. From chinese Tang Dynasty( about 1700 ys ago), japenese has imported a huge amount of chinese cultrue into their own, like chinese character, music, art of tea, and martial art etc. Do you know the city of kyoto (japenese ancient capital) is an exact copy of the capital city of then Tang Dynasty, Chang An. That is why people always say japenese culture is a little brother of chinese culture.

[atinymonkey]

Well, I've gone and joined a Wing Chun Kung Fu class. It's, um, different. I'm having to relearn how to punch, block, stand, move and generally unlearn all the Japanese stuff. It doesn’t help that the guy teaching is a foot shorter, when he asks me to punch I'm worried I'll hit him in the face. He wouldn't like that.

 

Plus, I keep lapsing into Aikido by mistake. It's a bit of a surprise to both of us if I grab a student’s hand in a lock instead of slapping it away. Dammit, if the opportunity crops up you’re supposed to take it. I’m not sure I can relearn how to fight.

 

Incidentally, Kung Fu is not so much self-defence as bludgeon your opponent to the ground, as it turns out. That’s not what I’d expect from monks. It’s a bit violent, and unrelenting.

 

Odd.

[x__heavenly__x]

I think we r just puttin in our thought's here....i once saw in nat geo channel that a man using Tai Chi can throw a person off his feet with his finger after an " excercise " to concentrate the Chi/telekinetic power in his index finger. (It was awesome to see him fly)

[Radical Edward]

having just started nug mui, it is more or less the same as wing chun with the siu lim tao and so on.

 

oh, atinymonkey: you are supposed to try to hit him in the face. if he is worth his salt then he will stop you. if you hit him in the face, I suggest you find a new teacher! oh, and there are plenty of locks and things in wing chun too. you'll get used to the style of it, and I agree with you, if the opportunity arises then in a fight, take it, but in class you aren't in a fight once or twice in classes so far I have found myself doing more advanced stuff, much to the suprise of the poeple I am practising with (since I am still technically a beginer even though I have used alot of the techniques for much longer than other people in the class)

[Sayonara]

Why did you have to tell him it's ok to go for the face?

 

Guess who has to practice with him.

[Radical Edward]

it's ok to go for your teacher's face. Anyone who says they are better than you deserves to get hit, if you can

[tu.dents]

I am not sure why a master of tai chi "stuck in a fight" would lose. Many students would do just fine. There are many styles in the world that are thought of as being weak or not practical. Practicality and effectiveness has to do with how well and how deep the practitioner can execute the things that he\she has developed. I know a "tai chi master" that would remind us not to make any assumtions if your stuck in a fight. All "styles" have a story, history, and a prehistory. Understanding these in your style of interest will help you grasp the structure of that style. Tai chi has a family tree structure like many other styles. Great tai chi "the root" is as effective as many other powerfull forms of fighting. the apples of the tree fall as they do some closer to the root some farther. The variations found in tai chi are apples that have fallen and found seed. Tai chi means "Grand Ultimate". This isn't talking about the stlye being better its referring to you reaching your greatest potential. the end Soso long

[atinymonkey]

I see. You seem to be confusing Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan. Ones for fighting and ones for health and harmony.

[bloodhound]

Tai Chi apparently translates to (the ultimate fighting method ) or something like that . I have a mate who does Wushu (he instructs in Imperial College Wushu club) and he tells me that a Tai Chi grandmaster wont lose in a fight with anyone.

 

There is an excellent series on BBC3 called "mind body and kick ass moves" where this brummy martial artist goes around asia , meeting with master and grandmasters of various styles. its absoultely amazing. there one was master who practiced (death touch) dont know what the chinese name for it is. and basically you hit the pressure points, and then something happens to the body. its weird.

 

(Mind body and kick ass moves is available for download though bit torrent at suprnova)

[Gilded]

"and basically you hit the pressure points, and then something happens to the body. its weird."

 

Sounds like the five-point-whatever-technique from Kill Bill vol 2.

[tu.dents]

tai chi is tai chi

[atinymonkey]

Tai Chi apparently translates to (the ultimate fighting method ) or something like that . I have a mate who does Wushu (he instructs in Imperial College Wushu club) and he tells me that a Tai Chi grandmaster wont lose in a fight with anyone.

 

Yeah, it's translation is 'the supreme ultimate fist'. But tbh, every martial art claims to be the best (except, strangely, ninjitsu which I was told from the start was a poor direct fighting method). One of the core beliefs of all martial arts is that if you can convince people you are the ultimate fighter, you will win the fight because the opponent loses all heart. Most of this Grandmaster stuff is just hot air, as Miyamoto Musashi adeptly demonstrated and then detailed in 'The Book of the Five Rings'.

 

The best physical demonstration of the fighting forms is in these ultimate fighting championships, where they actually pit the forms together. You just don't get wrinkled old men in it, as they get crushed quickly. Wushu itself does hold it's own against martial arts, but Tai Chi is not by any means an effective style. It's superb at keeping you fit and mentally healthy though.

 

There is an excellent series on BBC3 called "mind body and kick ass moves" where this brummy martial artist goes around asia , meeting with master and grandmasters of various styles. its absoultely amazing. there one was master who practiced (death touch) dont know what the chinese name for it is. and basically you hit the pressure points, and then something happens to the body. its weird.

 

I saw that, the presenter guy is really odd! It's got some good bits, but some of it is just silly. I saw a sword master disarming his student with his bare hands, which was supposed to be lethally dangerous, the student came in really slow then stopped to allow the sword to be taken of him. Apart from being staged, it's a move I'd seen done hundreds of times before by much lower skilled exponents.

 

tai chi is tai chi

 

No, there are hundreds of martial arts that come under the description 'Tai Chi'. Some of the more common ones are Chen, Wu Shi, Hu Lei, Taoist, Sun, Wu, Yang and Zhao Bao.

 

If you don't know the difference between Taoist and Wushu Tai Chi, you can't really make a comment on how effective the styles are in combat.