The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Since so many of your premises were false, so are your conclusions.

 

Also, you're not on topic.

 

To nitpick, that's the fallacy fallacy; his conclusion may actually be correct, even though the entire argument is bogus.

 

But let's get back on topic, please.

[iNow]

I appreciate the correction.

[pioneer]

The topic is the God delusion. I am suggesting genetic brain structuring due to constant worship behavior and religious programming. Even if you assume God is from the imagination, the brain may be set up to generate this, which would make it a part of natural selection and evolution. The idea of a God delusion may be the delusion.

 

Mythology was part of all ancient cultures. Even the America Indians have a rich tradition of myths. This involved gods or spirits. The most advanced cultures, which dominated the ancient world all had mythology. People were not literate but would learn these stories by word of mouth. The small patches that may have existed, without religion, if they existed, were absorbed like a dinosaur. Reason is associated with Greek and Rome both of which were big into mythology. Name one dominate culture that did not have some form of worship? Natural selection and genetic drift.

 

A possible source of evidence that suggest learned behavior can be incorporated into genetics can be seen with art. Compare caveman drawings to a modern artistic child, who is untrained. There is an drastic improvement in basic innate skill. Not every caveman was an artist either. It may reflect a relative percentage. With religion, mythology, natural spirits or whatever, it is collective training for 10,000 years.

[iNow]

The topic is the God delusion. I am suggesting genetic brain structuring due to constant worship behavior and religious programming.

Again, you are putting the cart before the horse.

 

All available data shows that it is worship behavior and religion which are the result of genetic "brain structuring" as you've called it. There are other characteristics selected for which result in the emergence of religion.

 

Simply reasserting that religion is what caused the brain structures we see is not valid. It was note valid the last time you said it, nor the time before that, and it's not valid now.

 

I dare you to prove me wrong with some citations to peer reviewed research. I double-dog dare ye.

 

 

The idea of a God delusion may be the delusion.

I bet you must sound pretty profound to people who are drunk, stupid, or not paying attention. However, I am paying attention, and I'm going to let you know that you're working from false premises and you're not making much sense.

 

 

Mythology was part of all ancient cultures.

That's a blanket claim, and is quickly disproven by showing simply one example of a culture which did not involve mythology.

 

False premise # 3 x 10^7.

 

 

Even the America Indians have a rich tradition of myths. This involved gods or spirits.

Anecdote is not evidence. The Mayans killed people over chocolate, too. What's your point? Do you even have one?

 

 

The most advanced cultures, which dominated the ancient world all had mythology.

Well, now you've said it twice. It simply MUST be right. Your premise is false until you show me evidence that not a single advanced culture dominated without mythology.

 

I don't really care if you do or do not offer this evidence, I'm just pointing out that you're making shit up and expecting us to take it as fact. Try again.

 

 

People were not literate but would learn these stories by word of mouth.

I suggest the book, "Singer of Tales," by Albert Lord which very artfully describes the process by which stories were and are passed. These stories have been shared and passed for aeons.

 

 

The small patches that may have existed, without religion, if they existed, were absorbed like a dinosaur.

They most certainly did exist, which shows that your previous premises were false. Also, they were NOT all "absorbed like a dinosaur," as many successfully passed their genes into future generations and had their society and customs survive.

 

It's as if you're suggesting that religion was what allowed survival. If that is the case, you're very wrong, and again misrepresenting the process of natural selection.

 

 

A possible source of evidence that suggest learned behavior can be incorporated into genetics can be seen with art.

I'm pretty sure genes aren't studied by looking at graphic art. If I recall correctly, this type of study is done in the lab, with comparison of dna chains and structures.

 

Come on.

 

 

Compare caveman drawings to a modern artistic child, who is untrained. There is an drastic improvement in basic innate skill. Not every caveman was an artist either. It may reflect a relative percentage. With religion, mythology, natural spirits or whatever, it is collective training for 10,000 years.

Lol. I see now that you are dominated by the delusion, and looking for ways to support it. When someone who is not deluded like this reads your words, you appear silly.

Edited June 26, 2008 by iNow

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The topic is the God delusion. I am suggesting genetic brain structuring due to constant worship behavior and religious programming.

I think the simplest response here would be to point out that Lamarckism has been discredited. Constant worship behavior in an adult will not genetically reprogram the brain.

[Ladeira]

Most of my friends (including all my best friends and me) are atheist. I have no idea why cause I did not choose them because they had no religion, it was not more than a coincidence. Here in Brazil, people are not so closed to religion, we're usually more easygoing when atheism is discussed, of course it's not SO easy as my mother hates to think about me as an atheist since she is an almost fanatic Catholic.

[ParanoiA]

Are you all saying there is nothing to be said for the idea that worship in deity could be "selected"? Haven't considered it much, maybe you all have, but it seems plausible that some groups could perform better with this kind of motivation, or security in delusion.

 

After all, self delusion wouldn't be very useful if it didn't.

 

Evidence, you say? Alright, I'll bring up some irrefutable evidence.

 

Battlestar Galactica. Adama gave them 'earth' to believe in, when they still believed it was only legend and fairy tales. But the rationale was that we could live better if we had something to live for.

 

Perhaps deity, filling in the gaps of the unknown, helped groups live better, more successful, with purpose?

[Sisyphus]

Are you all saying there is nothing to be said for the idea that worship in deity could be "selected"? Haven't considered it much, maybe you all have, but it seems plausible that some groups could perform better with this kind of motivation, or security in delusion.

 

After all, self delusion wouldn't be very useful if it didn't.

 

Evidence, you say? Alright, I'll bring up some irrefutable evidence.

 

Battlestar Galactica. Adama gave them 'earth' to believe in, when they still believed it was only legend and fairy tales. But the rationale was that we could live better if we had something to live for.

 

Perhaps deity, filling in the gaps of the unknown, helped groups live better, more successful, with purpose?

 

Sure, why not? Maybe not directly, but I could definitely see it as a natural - or maybe inevitable - offshoot of traits that are selected for. These would include the ones that help us live together, like agreement on societal norms and taboos, as well as our monkey curiosity wondering what caused the things we see around us. We see that we can affect the environment but there are lots of things we can't do, so "somebody greater than us did it" is a natural catch-all explanation. Merging the source of those societal rules with the "greater beings" makes sense and would be advantageous to those in power or anyone else with a particular interest in the status quo.

 

From there, religions would "evolve" as memes, and various things would be selected for, like: better carrots, scarier sticks, more powerful beings (we'd better worship the new god since he can beat up the old one), more jealous gods (what is a jealous god besides a religion's evolved means of eliminating the competition), marching orders to convert nonbelievers (the religions that did this would have a huge and obvious advantage), and stuff like more and more abstract mystical elements (because it's harder to find something ridiculous if it's harder to understand).

 

(BTW, this isn't based on any actual research, it's just my personal speculation.)

[tomgwyther]

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins does mention a Darwinian approach to the propagation of religion via genetic and memetic selection.

 

Have a read from page 170 of the book.