Comandante Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 Hey, just wondering if someone was to fall into a pool of liquid nitrogen and become completely frozen, what would be tissue damage and would it be possible to bring him/her back to life?
YT2095 Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 No, it wouldn`t be, the cell walls would all be punctured due to ice crystal formation. not only that but the cooling would be uneven and lead to further damage also, as well as the obvious cause of death which would probably be Shock / Heart failure or whatever...
Comandante Posted April 20, 2008 Author Posted April 20, 2008 hi YT, was thinking so too, just checking. However, is there any other way to freeze someone so that she/he could be 'warmed up' again without fatal damage?
YT2095 Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 certain creatures can do this, I forget the exact enzyme they use, but in effect it dehydrates the cells and so no damage is done on freezing, water bears use it for instance. I think some frogs do and crickets. it IS possible, but I don`t know about Humans, this could be quite Toxic to use and cause more damage??? aha, it`s not an enyme as I thought but a Sugar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trehalose
ydoaPs Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 No, it wouldn`t be, the cell walls would all be punctured due to ice crystal formation. Doesn't that depend on the speed at which it is frozen? I though faster freezing time means smaller ice crystals which means less cell damage. At least that's what Alton Brown told me when he was freezing strawberries.
YT2095 Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 yes, it`s quite true, however you have to allow for the 11% expansion!
Shaykers Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 how much expansion would there be if one used liquid helium...? just curious...
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Hey, just wondering if someone was to fall into a pool of liquid nitrogen and become completely frozen, what would be tissue damage and would it be possible to bring him/her back to life? REPLY: A rather extreme example of adaptation is found in the EASTERN WOOD FROGS which are found North of the Arctic Circle. As the frog slowly freezes over several hours they pump large amounts of glucose anti-freeze into their cells. They stop breathing, heart beat stops, and all brain activity stops. Sixty seven percent of their bodies freeze hard. This information taken from WONDER QUEST at : http:http://www.wonderquest.com/FrogsPolar.htm . ...Dr.Syntax
iNow Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Would that pumping of large amounts of glucose still occur if the freezing happened with a few seconds instead of over the course of several hours? I'm going to venture a guess and say, no... it wouldn't, so (while an incredibly interesting factoid) is not entirely related to the quoted question... which asked specifically about freezing by liquid nitrogen. Either way, I too am somewhat curious if freezing by liquid helium would result in the same type of cell damage from ice crystal growth (as asked by Shaykers).
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Would that pumping of large amounts of glucose still occur if the freezing happened with a few seconds instead of over the course of several hours? I'm going to venture a guess and say, no... it wouldn't, so (while an incredibly interesting factoid) is not entirely related to the quoted question... which asked specifically about freezing by liquid nitrogen. Either way, I too am somewhat curious if freezing by liquid helium would result in the same type of cell damage from ice crystal growth (as asked by Shaykers). Reply: What is the goal of this topic ? To find a means of achieving human suspended animation or to find the fastest way of freezing a human being without regard as to whether the person lives or dies ? I presented this information STUPIDLY ASSUMING THAT SURVIVAL of the human being frozen was the desired goal. How stupid of me to think that way. ...Dr.Syntax ... Oh golly, you better report me to the monitors for being off topic if you have not already done so. It is thinking such as yours that stifles much of the free flow of ideas that at times could result in real answers to real problems. ...Dr.Syntax Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedWould that pumping of large amounts of glucose still occur if the freezing happened with a few seconds instead of over the course of several hours? I'm going to venture a guess and say, no... it wouldn't, so (while an incredibly interesting factoid) is not entirely related to the quoted question... which asked specifically about freezing by liquid nitrogen. Either way, I too am somewhat curious if freezing by liquid helium would result in the same type of cell damage from ice crystal growth (as asked by Shaykers). REPLY: I just reread the original posting and the survival of the frozen person was a mentioned concern of his as it was in most of the follow up postings. Perhaps I was not as off topic as you said I was. ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 23, 2009 by dr.syntax
iNow Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Hey, just wondering if someone was to fall into a pool of liquid nitrogen and become completely frozen, what would be tissue damage and would it be possible to bring him/her back to life? I've bolded the relevant bit of the OP to assist in my point, Dr.Syntax. Regardless, the thread is over a year and a half old, so I'm going to assume he's comfortable with the answers he has received since the thread went dormant. Take care.
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I've bolded the relevant bit of the OP to assist in my point, Dr.Syntax. Regardless, the thread is over a year and a half old, so I'm going to assume he's comfortable with the answers he has received since the thread went dormant. Take care. REPLY: You presumptuous ass . Who are you to determine what is relevant in someone else`s posting. He posted it the way he chose to which included concern for the reviveability of the frozen person.As did ALL of the followup postings. How can YOU possibly decide for HIM what is relevant ? Also, this thread was reintroduced today by Shaykers, not me. I responded to a current posting. And what is wrong with someone responding to an older thread. Who are you to decide what is appropriate for fellow forum members to respond to or post about. Who the f,,k do you think you are ? ...Dr.Syntax Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedWould that pumping of large amounts of glucose still occur if the freezing happened with a few seconds instead of over the course of several hours? I'm going to venture a guess and say, no... it wouldn't, so (while an incredibly interesting factoid) is not entirely related to the quoted question... which asked specifically about freezing by liquid nitrogen. Either way, I too am somewhat curious if freezing by liquid helium would result in the same type of cell damage from ice crystal growth (as asked by Shaykers). REPLY: It seems obvious to me the freezing of a human body by any means would result in the same fatal destruction of cells because of those inescapable hydrogen bonds that become permanent when water freezes. The oxygen atoms attach themselves to those hydrogen atoms in a permanent manner when water freezes until and unless the water thaws and becomes a liquid. Water freezing destroys cells permanently when the water in those cells freezes because it expands from it`s liquid state forming crystaline structures that tear the cells complex structures apart. No matter how fast a humans body freezes, the results will be the same.It may be possible with micro-organisms if this freezing occurs so fast that the hydrogen bonds are not locked in place so to speak. A different form of ice , lacking permanent hydrogen bonds, does seem possible. This form of ice would sink in water. This would seem to me an interesting project for any student or professional scientist. It would be certain to be a noteworthy achievement. I give away some of my best ideas. I did not read any of this from any source. As far as I know this idea originated here and now with me. The proof would be that the ice sinks in water. There is a great idea for a doctoral in physics or chemistry. ...Dr.Syntax ... PS: The reason this form of ice would sink in water is that it would have the same ratio of hydrogen bonds as liquid water and would contract as the temperature decreased thereby increasing it`s density. Ice is colder than water. This"super-quick freezed ice" would be a new invention as far as I know, as is the concept itself, original to me as of here and now: Dr.Syntax. 2:28 AM EST October 23,2009 ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 23, 2009 by dr.syntax Consecutive posts merged. -1
GDG Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Dr. Syntax, you may want to take a look at the Wikipedia entry on phases of ice before you run off to the USPTO. -1
dr.syntax Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) Dr. Syntax, you may want to take a look at the Wikipedia entry on phases of ice before you run off to the USPTO. REPLY: Well my deductions were correct in all regards,except It was already known. What I was describing is called solid state water with the hydrogen bond ratio the same as water but in a solid state. I pretty much assumed if I thought of it, it is very likely someone else had previously. It was a very simple concept to come to. I want thank you for pointing me to that website. It confirmed my conclusions. Regards, ... Dr. Synyax Edited October 24, 2009 by dr.syntax spelling
Genecks Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Humans have a much more complex physiology, and as such, the amount of cellular death from a nitrogen bath would be large. Also, there were some articles from Australia a few years ago that described what it was like to take the blood out of wolves(?) and replace it with a saline solution (undescribed at the time; perhaps a military/defense operation). It was found that the wolves could be frozen to death and be brought back to life through a variety of blood fluid exchanges. The process needs to be progressive and not instantaneous.
dr.syntax Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Humans have a much more complex physiology, and as such, the amount of cellular death from a nitrogen bath would be large. Also, there were some articles from Australia a few years ago that described what it was like to take the blood out of wolves(?) and replace it with a saline solution (undescribed at the time; perhaps a military/defense operation). It was found that the wolves could be frozen to death and be brought back to life through a variety of blood fluid exchanges. The process needs to be progressive and not instantaneous. REPLY: This is facinating stuff. If they can do it with a wolf they should be able to do it with a person. I`m going do a search and see if I can find a website that discusses this. I never heard of this. This is the sort of thing science fiction writers have been writing about for decades. ...Dr.Synntax Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI found some articles about dogs having saline solution added to thier blood,being cooled enough to be declared dead [ no heartbeat ? ] and being reanimated, That`s about all I could find. Sorry, if this stories out there I could not find it. Dr.Syntax
greenprogrammin Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Also frogs are able to regrow limbs... This could possibly account for the tissue damage issues.... I think we should broaden our attention to this... Keep it going guys! Nothing wrong with it! TTYL
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