Our Origins

[Sorcerer]

It would be very interesting if scientists could repeat... umm, know what's it called in English *checks dictionary* abiogenesis? Well, what I mean is the event where lifeless matter became living matter (or an early stage of actually living matter). If the evolution theory was a wooden tower, creating life from lifeless matter / repeating the abiogenesis would indeed be like steel girders to fortify that tower... Ok, lousy metaphor but you get the idea.

 

I think its more likely to observe it happening on another planet than be able to recreate the environment needed to do it here. This is because in my opinion there were a variety of micro-climes which contributed to the chemical evolution of life, each had a particular role to play, chance also had a role to play, I don't think staring at a vat for eons will get you any kind of practical experiment.

[Gilded]

Indeed, it would be very interesting to find a planet where life is just taking its first steps. Watching it develop from the start would be like a TV show that lasts for billions of years. :> Kinda reminds me of Bold and the Beautiful... with lasting, and lasting, and lasting and creatures of ~10 IQ bouncing around and all that.

[psi20]

My pseudoscience goes like this. Life was here since the beginning of the universe. That's part of the reason why there's clumping in the early universe. You might argue that there's no way bacteria could survive in a period where no atoms even existed, absolutely no way that anything could exist in such conditions. But this kind of thinking made people think there was no life in the arctics, deep in the sea, in volcanoes, etc. Just because we can't survive in these conditions, it doesn't mean no life could exist. Anyways, as planets form and bacteria land on them through meteors or what have you, the planets surge with life. You might argue that if this were true, we should be finding life on Mars or more in space. However, life can't expand as fast as the universe, so it's ridiculous to say that you can find life everywhere. Then evolution occurs on these planets.

 

Meanwhile, as planets and moons start being bombarded with comets and oceans develop, random chemical reactions also form the basics of life. Depending on how much water is present, life could form anywhere from a couple thousands of years to billions of years. Then evolution occurs on these places as well.

 

As intelligent life form, they figure out how to manipulate their structure and start enhancing themselves. We see this in ourselves, too. We cut our nails, bleach our hair, spray perfume, etc. Later, these life forms might consider genetically changing themselves or perhaps adding other compounds to enhance their structure, meaning becoming robotic or the like. These life forms might also decide to create life on other planets.

 

So we came here perhaps because of basic life from space, chemical reactions in our primordial soup, and/or other life forms planting the seeds of life.

[Gilded]

"So we came here perhaps because of basic life from space, chemical reactions in our primordial soup, and/or other life forms planting the seeds of life."

 

All possible, I'd go with the prim. soup though. Mmm... soup. I wonder if there are other possible structures for living thingies than silicon and carbon (and even the silicon is rather uncertain).

 

"Later, these life forms might consider genetically changing themselves or perhaps adding other compounds to enhance their structure, meaning becoming robotic or the like. These life forms might also decide to create life on other planets."

 

Heh, the game Master of Orion immediately came to mind. Also, the vision in Star Control of the Mycon-species is rather interesting; a fungoid species that can change its DNA at will, almost instantly. "Today I'd like to be able to eat lead-based compounds, but perhaps tomorrow is a good day for being able to breath methane". :>

[psi20]

I remember reading a science fiction book called Space Odyssey or something and there were giant gas clouds on Jupiter that were the size of cities but were living. They could throw lightning bolts at each other.

I don't remember if this is true or if I just made this up off the top of my head right now, but I remember reading about some jellyfishes being made up of 99% water.

[Sorcerer]

My pseudoscience goes like this. Life was here since the beginning of the universe. That's part of the reason why there's clumping in the early universe. You might argue that there's no way bacteria could survive in a period where no atoms even existed, absolutely no way that anything could exist in such conditions. But this kind of thinking made people think there was no life in the arctics, deep in the sea, in volcanoes, etc. Just because we can't survive in these conditions, it doesn't mean no life could exist.

 

Ok, considering the super dense super hot universe that followed the big bang was the most extreme environment ever, I think your argument falls apart, I mean its ludicrously more extreme than antartica or a volcanoe. Also since there were no atoms, as you point out, then there is no basis for life, which as defined here on earth requires replicating molecules. Otherwise the rest of your post is plausible.

[SlackGirl]

Evolution... It is an occurance that can apply to all things. The Earth evolved from gasses... We evolved from apes which evolved from... Can it not go back infinately? What evidence is there that there was one begining at which "one created" existance?

[Sorcerer]

Evolution... It is an occurance that can apply to all things. The Earth evolved from gasses... We evolved from apes which evolved from... Can it not go back infinately? What evidence is there that there was one begining at which "one created" existance?

 

No, because I beleive things are not infintely divisible, I think Max Planck will concur.

 

However, see this thread; the idea is different, but removes the need for a beggining: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6341

 

Also, if the beggining was a singularity, as an observer in the future of that singularity, we look back towards it, but cannot see it, not just for other more practicle reasons (photons and electron soup) but because it is infinitely stretched backward in time.... just as we can never observe an object passing the event horison of a black hole.

[shortylbc]

I am relegious, very relegious in fact, and i am constantly finding APPARENT contradictions between science and my relegion(Judaism). BUT...! With proper thought and investingation(i hope it was proper) i concluded that just as G-d created Adam at a stage where he biologically looked as if he was a middle-aged grown man, but was in fact minutes old. He did this simply because He had to enable Adam to be able to survive on his own. So to G-d created the Universe as an ancient something billion year old universe in order that it would have worlds that can support humans, ie our earth. Part of this aged look is the evolution evidence that G-d provided. I hope this makes more sense to other people than it does to my friends...lol.

[atinymonkey]

Why would God bother to do that?

[Mokele]

Do you count as having evolved if atomic tests in the south pacific turned you into a 165 foot monster with the urge to destroy Tokyo at every opportunity?

[Martin]

God is an unnecessary idea that humans made up

I guess it was at a time when the idea was good for something

and now it isnt useful for anything much, except literature and music.

 

the universe is more beautiful and wonderful than

you can realize by reading any Biblical or other primitive mythological account of its genesis

 

so the various Ethnic God-stories only serve to debase and desecrate nature, if they are taken to mean anything about reality.

 

However some of them are pretty good literature----I especially like the Jewish account, as mythological poetry---so my personal taste runs to the Book of Genesis rather than, say, the mesopotamian epic of Gilgamesh.

 

I especially like the role of alcohol in the Bible. Noah getting drunk and forgetting to put his clothes on. Lot's daughters getting their father drunk so he would have sex with them and get them pregnant. I also like the comic scene when Noah gives his house to one of his buddies he left outside the Ark, to close the hatch up, just before the rain. There is a lot that is human and poignant and funny.

 

Anyway, speculations about a Creator strike me as demeaning and disrespectful of the universe. It is miraculous enough in sober reality without making stuff up.

 

This is just my personal spiritual life, I am talking about. I really love the fundamental proportions of nature----the universal constants.

I dont want to be preaching or telling others what to think but I wish more people were aware of the basic numbers and would ask themselves why those numbers are what they are!

 

they are the basic cause for why we have long-lived stars and galaxies and plenty of stable elements with a rich chemistry and rocky planets with oceans etc.

 

just a few numbers do it all

 

alpha (around 1/137) and the proton/electron mass ratio (around 1836)

and the planck/proton mass ratio (around 13E18) and a few more like that.

 

so far AFAIK there is no evidence or valid reasoning that the basic numbers were chosen by an interfering manipulative Intelligence ("God").

If there was any indication that some Consciousness interfered in determing basic proportions of nature, like 1/137 and 1836, then I would be disappointed but I would immediately acknowledge it. So far, however, it looks to me as if the trend is for more and more to be explained. The history points in the direction of explaining more with fewer. If there are 3 dozen unexplained numbers now, then in the future I expect it to be boiled down to 2 dozen or one dozen.

 

when you model the universe, you basically put those numbers down and let her rip. space, galaxies, stars, planets, life all just evolves (as long as the basic proportions you start with are right)

 

so this is the central mystery----why those proportions are what they are---and postulating a manipulative Consciousness takes away from the mystery and wonder of the natural world

and the purity and freedom of it

[shortylbc]

Why would God bother to do that?

 

 

God had to make an ancient looking universe because an infant universe cant support life.

[Auk]

I find that there are problems with the theory of evolution that are to big to be overlooked. I'm very religious so God created us pure and simple.

[Ophiolite]

Would you care to cite your top three problems.

[Sayonara]

God had to make an ancient looking universe because an infant universe cant support life.

Don't you think it might occur to a god that an evolutionary approach might be a better idea?

 

I mean, come on: you can't be saying that you believe in a supreme ruler of everything who happens to be really bad at cost-benefit analysis.

 

 

I find that there are problems with the theory of evolution that are to big to be overlooked. I'm very religious so God created us pure and simple.

Do you mean '[you] find', or do you mean that you read it somewhere?

[swansont]

I'm very religious so God created us pure and simple.

 

That really sums it up pretty well.

 

You want a simple answer, and you have one ("God did it"), which is accepted because you're very religious. You get to avoid that whole messy (i.e. unpure and unsimple) critical analysis of everything.

[ecoli]

I beleive in God because science doesn't have all the answers, all the answers can be explained by acts of God.

 

Also, when you think about how improbable our existance here on earth is, it's hard not to beleive. According to evolutionary theory, we evolved by mutations in the DNA of other organisms. Mutations are random events, so are we here by a bunch of random circumstaces? That seems to unlikely to me. I think, that a higher power is the source of these mutations.

[Skye]

By that logic, lottery winners should be stripped of their winnings. The odds of them winning are so unbelievably low that they couldn't have won.

[fuhrerkeebs]

all the answers can be explained by acts of God.

 

Can God be explained by an act of God?

 

Also, when you think about how improbable our existance here on earth is, it's hard not to beleive.

 

How improbable is it? Have you looked at the sky lately?

 

Mutations are random events, so are we here by a bunch of random circumstaces?

 

Not exactly. Mutations are random, but natural selection isn't, and natural selection plays a very large role is speciation.

 

I think, that a higher power is the source of these mutations.

 

We can explain mutations without God: http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/disorders/sloozeworm/mutationbg.cfm

[atinymonkey]

I'm stupid, therefore my answer to everything is 'God did it'.

[ecoli]

Can God be explained by an act of God?

 

I don't think anyone created God. God just is. It's the same as you saying what created matter. You would say nothing created matter, it just is.

 

How improbable is it? Have you looked at the sky lately?

 

Sure, but I said it's improbable, not impossible. Theres a big difference.

 

 

We can explain mutations without God: http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/disorders/sloozeworm/mutationbg.cfm[/url']

 

Yes, chemicals and radiation causes mutation. But where do these chemical come from. Where do atoms come from. The big bang theory is valid, I beleive it, but, where does matter orignally come from. Until you can answer this I will continue to believe in God.

 

I accept the fact that I could be wrong in my beliefs. You may be right, there may be no God. But, for me, it's good enough for now.

 

I also don't expect you to accept my beliefs. I don't want to "convert" you or change your opinions. I'm just supporting my opinions, as you asked.

[ecoli]

By that logic, lottery winners should be stripped of their winnings. The odds of them winning are so unbelievably low that they couldn't have won.

 

No, by my logic the odds of winning the lottery are so low, that if someone wins, I believe it to be an act of God.

[Martin]

No, by my logic the odds of winning the lottery are so low, that if someone wins, I believe it to be an act of God.

 

at last I have encountered someone who has an answer for why

the fine structure constant alpha is

equal to 1/137 instead of something else.

 

 

it is the number that scales the strength of electric interactions to other kinds

and Feynmann advocated every physicist thumbtack the number to the wall and think about why it is what it is. 40 years later still no answer

 

but the fact that it is that and not a couple of percent different is what makes the sun be longlived instead of burning everything in a hurry, or not burning

and makes there be lots of chemical elements so you can have interesting chemistry etc. etc. it is a very pervasive number that gets into a lot of things and ensures that they work OK and nobody can explain why it happens to be 1/137.

 

or more exactly 1/137.036... there are a few more known decimals to it.

 

you would, unless you are kidding which I guess is possible, say this number (strength of electric coupling relative to other basic stuff)

is what it is because Mr. God decided to make it that.

 

(that and a few things like it, almost ensures that life is going to evolve on one planet or another, so it makes the job of being Creator fairly simple compared, say, with doing your own income tax or running a Chinese Take-Out Restaurant)

 

But I think there ought to be a better explanation than that.

 

Anyway it is kind of like winning the lottery. 1/137 could have been pretty much anything as far as we know but our universe lucked out and got a good one. So that is what you call "an act of God"

[Stargazer]

I'm surprised that so many can still believe in supernatural things or old myths.