Zero point, over unity, free energy: Nonsense or the only way out of this mess

[iNow]

BINGO!!

 

Gosh... Who'd have thunk it could've happened so quickly?

[Reaper]

Hey, no fair! I called Bingo first!

[Vishal]

Actually, that really is your problem. You are the one who is promoting this idea, not us.

 

Because you are the one making the claim.

 

We are asking our own questions, to you! All we are asking is for you to provide one detailed schematic of such a machine that can supposedly tap into ZPE. Of course, if you actually read the link I posted much earlier, you would have realized that such a machine probably wouldn't be useful for solving our energy problems.

 

What claim? I asked a question.. I don't get it. Are you already starting from a premise of implied knowledge of the TRUTH about ZPE? Do you KNOW ZPE doesnt work? Or have you only taken what others have said at face value? The lab-coat told you that ZPE is for loonies and you listened to the lab-coat. How does give you credibility, or make you 'righter' than me?

[Reaper]

To the OP, why do you seem so reluctant to just post a link referring to this supposedly functional device?

 

What claim?

 

That there exists a machine that can tap into ZPE and that it is somehow being "suppressed".

 

I asked a question.. I don't get it. Are you already starting from a premise of implied knowledge of the TRUTH about ZPE?

 

Not really.

 

Do you KNOW ZPE doesnt work? Or have you only taken what others have said at face value?

 

I know that the proposed machines that hope to tap into such "limitless" energy don't work.

 

The lab-coat told you that ZPE is for loonies and you listened to the lab-coat. How does give you credibility, or make you 'righter' than me?

 

I suppose because they actually know what they are doing and have spent a lot longer then you have studying this problem. Plus, they also show math and reasoning and physical evidence that everyone can look at and verify, so I know that they aren't just making it up.

[ydoaPs]

Experimental verification of a revolutionary technology is the wrong approach? What is the right approach? You were just telling me to investigate it myself. You even said you would provide a detailed diagram of a working device.

 

If you're not interested, they why make the thread? Why are you still posting in it?

 

Smart questions? What do you define as smart questions? Is "How did the device overcome friction?" a smart question? If so, what is the answer?

[Vishal]

yeah. you got me guys. Bingo it is. simple magnetic phenomenon. Yes.

 

So, I ask you what is wrong with taking that to the next level? Use bigger Neodymium Iron Boron magnets. a 3 cubic inch magnet has the force equivalent to 150kgs. We're not talking fridge magnets.

[ydoaPs]

BINGO!!

 

Gosh... Who'd have thunk it could've happened so quickly?

 

Play by the rules! You have to post a link to your card and a description of how you won.

[Reaper]

yeah. you got me guys. Bingo it is. simple magnetic phenomenon. Yes.

 

Read this for a reference as to what we are talking about: http://blogs.scienceforums.net/swansont/archives/296

 

So, I ask you what is wrong with taking that to the next level? Use bigger Neodymium Iron Boron magnets. a 3 cubic inch magnet has the force equivalent to 150kgs. We're not talking fridge magnets.

 

And I ask you, why don't you just post a link that gives details on such a machine? Or a reference from a reputable source?

[Vishal]

Experimental verification of a revolutionary technology is the wrong approach? What is the right approach? You were just telling me to investigate it myself. You even said you would provide a detailed diagram of a working device.

 

Smart questions? What do you define as smart questions? Is "How did the device overcome friction?" a smart question? If so, what is the answer?

 

YOU need to experimentally verify it. Have you done that? You can't rely on what others tell you all the time. Specially not when the people who make the media are heavily incentivised not to tell you the truth and to mislead you. I never promised detailed diagrams ever. I have only started in my mission to prove to myself first that it is a viable option. I've already started with my own experimentation and till now I have not found any concept wrong. Try it out yourself first. Don't rely on what you think.

 

As for friction. It is magnetic repulsion that causes it.

[Reaper]

YOU need to experimentally verify it. Have you done that? You can't rely on what others tell you all the time.

 

How I love the irony.

 

Specially not when the people who make the media are heavily incentivised not to tell you the truth and to mislead you. I never promised detailed diagrams ever.

 

Then why should we take you seriously? If you are going to tell us about this wonderful energy source and the machine that can tap it, it is up to YOU to provide all the details. Otherwise this is nothing more than appeal to conspiracy.

 

I have only started in my mission to prove to myself first that it is a viable option.

 

I suggest you reconsider that then, because the link I provided doesn't seem at all favorable to the idea of ZPE in general.

 

I've already started with my own experimentation and till now I have not found any concept wrong. Try it out yourself first. Don't rely on what you think.

 

Why can't you just tell us the details? Provide a link? Tell us the procedure taken? The results found? How MUCH energy can be tapped with this machine? What is it's efficiency? How does it compare to other sources and processes of collecting energy? I mean, seriously, we are giving you a chance to prove yourself.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Okay, look. I just spent twenty minutes trying to find a diagram for a nice ZPE device and found little. If you have a diagram, I'd appreciate it; I'll buy the parts and try to build the thing as soon as I have time.

 

If I get a diagram and the parts, I will document the process, attach an ammeter to the thing, and see what happens.

[ydoaPs]

YOU need to experimentally verify it. Have you done that?

What do you think I've been offering to do? I can't falsify all ZPE(or perpetual motion) claims with one experiment, but I can falsify one at a time. YOU said you had(and were willing to give if asked) plans for a perpetual motion device I could build with a $50 trip to Radio Shack. I asked for the plans and now you refuse to give them?

 

 

You can't rely on what others tell you all the time.

Exactly. Which is why I want to experimentally verify the design you claim works.

 

Specially not when the people who make the media are heavily incentivised not to tell you the truth and to mislead you.

I'm not asking the media for your plans. I'm asking YOU.

 

I never promised detailed diagrams ever.

Must I quote you?

If you are really interested you could build yourself one for about 50 bucks and a trip to Radio Shack. ask me for diagrams when you're motivated to make that trip.

I must have seriously misconstrued that.

 

 

I've already started with my own experimentation

Documented experimentation?

 

and till now I have not found any concept wrong.

Are the ones you built still running? Are you still hooked to the power grid?

 

Try it out yourself first. Don't rely on what you think.

What do you think I've been offering to do?

 

As for friction. It is magnetic repulsion that causes it.

Actually, electric repulsion causes friction. How did the device overcome friction? What about the fact that permanent magnets eventually demagnetize?

[Reaper]

Also note the fact that if you used electromagnets rather then permanent ones, those take up quite a bit of power, so does this process and the machine result in a net energy increase?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The point here is not that the device operates perpetually but that it produces more energy than it needs. I presume replacing some neodymium magnets is supposed to be cheaper than putting in fuel.

 

One could then argue that it just extracts energy from the magnets, but I'm not entirely sure how the physics of that works.

[Reaper]

One could then argue that it just extracts energy from the magnets, but I'm not entirely sure how the physics of that works.

 

Well, we already use magnets to generate electricity via a turbine, so it goes without saying that you would need them, because moving magnetic fields will induce an electric current. But, in every instance, there is a source of energy to actually make those magnets spin around the coil of wire, whether it would be from superheated steam (heated via fossil fuels, solar, geothermal, or nuclear), or hydroelectric, or a wind mill or tidal waves (which is still in it's experimental stage I think).

 

So, if this ZPE machine actually does work, it would have to induce a current somehow (and a large amount at that). How it does this is the OP's problem.

[swansont]

What claim? I asked a question.. I don't get it. Are you already starting from a premise of implied knowledge of the TRUTH about ZPE? Do you KNOW ZPE doesnt work? Or have you only taken what others have said at face value? The lab-coat told you that ZPE is for loonies and you listened to the lab-coat. How does give you credibility, or make you 'righter' than me?

 

You claimed that ZPE could be tapped in the OP. Your claim, your burden of proof. And I rarely wear a lab coat.

[Phi for All]

If you are really interested you could build yourself one for about 50 bucks and a trip to Radio Shack. ask me for diagrams when you're motivated to make that trip.

You have been challenged on this statement. Will you give Cap'n Reffsmat the diagrams you promised? If he's going to make the device, it has to be from plans you approve. If not, you can easily say, "I didn't mean THAT machine! Everyone knows THAT one won't work!"

 

Please, either give us a link to the diagrams you say will work, or retract the statement and tell us you aren't sure if any of them will really work. Very simple.

[Mr Skeptic]

Well, some types that could be called zero point energy actually do work. The casimir effect, for example exists ... but how might it be used? It will give you energy when you allow two plates to come together, but then to pull the plates apart again requires energy. If you made disposable plates, maybe, but that would not be easy. The idea of making an electron fall into the nucleus can be done ... in a neutron star. Not very practical.

 

Just like fusion can and has been done, it still is difficult and can't be done economically. Unlike fusion, they have some probably insurmountable problems.

 

And then of course there is all the BS and crazy people. Which composes the vast majority of the ZPE crowd, along with scammers and their victims.

[Reaper]

I don't think the Casimir effect could be used to solve any of our energy problems though; the energy density of the vacuum is much too low.

[elas]

The idea of making an electron fall into the nucleus can be done ... in a neutron star. Not very practical.

 

Any chance of a reference, A description of this action is just what I am looking for.

[Pangloss]

What claim? I asked a question.. I don't get it.

 

No you're not, as the quote below shows.

 

The truth is that ZPE machines have been built.

 

We know the reson why no scientific reveiw will acknowledge the phenomenon. Because doing so would mean that science itself runs the risk of being discredited. How can we have 'over unity'? How can we defy the laws of thermodynamics? oh my.. can't do THAT!!

 

There is no shortage of documentaries on the internet. It does not matter how sceptical you are' date=' [b']just try to dig a little deeper and it will open your eyes[/b]. Yes there is a whole heap of stuff out there that is nonsense but to a keen AND intelligent enquirer its not impossible to find stuff that rings true. If not anything else it will get you interested.

 

You're making claims, not asking questions.

 

Mod note: Why hasn't this been moved to Pseudoscience and Speculations, guys? Isn't it just another wacky theory?

[swansont]

Mod note: Why hasn't this been moved to Pseudoscience and Speculations, guys? Isn't it just another wacky theory?

 

Geez, I thought I had. Doing it now.

 

Any chance of a reference, A description of this action is just what I am looking for.

 

Reverse beta decay, aka electron capture. [math]p + e \rightarrow n + \nu[/math]

 

But you need enough gravitational pressure to overcome the electron degeneracy pressure

[Graviphoton]

Simply, we don't know how to harvest the energy of zero point field. We can get a very very small amount of negative mass from the Casimir Effect, but even that is too small amount to obtain. Just remember what zero-point energy is. Its a giant lake of energy, embedded into all space and all time. It pressure is infinite to some regards, since as soon as you remove some of the energy, the space you removed it from is instantly filled again.

 

Who knows if we will make zero point energy batteries, but it seems unlikely right now. We simply don't have the energy required to get any noticable amount of zero-point energy.

[Mr Skeptic]

No, zero point energy is energy that is there, but when you remove it it is removed. We do know how to extract it, and those of us who are sane know that the scammers who say it can be done easily or profitably are lying. For the vaccuum energy via the casimir effect, we can extract it by moving two plates close together in a vaccuum. But you can't move the plates appart again without inputing as much or more energy. Just like you can't use a water wheel to pump water up and spin the water wheel.

 

Perhaps an analogy will help you: the earth has gravitational potential energy. When you drop something, you gain energy from the gravitational potential. But the thing you drop doesn't just keep falling. When it hits the ground, you either have to expend energy to lift it again, or get something else to drop.

 

Now you could say that if we could only keep dropping things we would get infinite energy from it, but since you understand gravity you probably know that that can't be done.

[Sayonara]

Save your cash. you'll need it. watch this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrxl8hx9wcU

 

Yes, the video where the cameraman shows every conceivable angle (including a weirdly skewed "sneak up on the device" shot), except for any that might show a glimpse of what is behind the unexplained vertical board.

 

It's very convincing.