Corporal Punishment in Public School

[ParanoiA]

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts were about corporal punishment in public school.

 

I've been utterly frustrated with the ineffective disciplinary techniques used by public schools today - which has degenerated to sending them home for a vacation (ususally called suspension), or tattle telling to the parents. Because they are impotent and can only utilize the carrot - no stick to be found.

 

I find myself contemplating military school for my oldest teen, guilty of chronic suspension (well not quite that bad, but this is the 3rd time this year).

 

But then I'm also contemplating the fact that he's not half as outrageous as I was in school. The things they suspend him for are ridiculous. I was only suspended a couple of times throughtout ALL of high school. And I was a problem for my parents, no doubt. But the school gave me swats for my silly outburts.

 

If I wanted to make the class laugh, it cost me out in the hallway. For my son, they send him home. Send. Him. Home. For an inappropriate joke in the middle of class? I feel like I'm not getting my money's worth out of the school. Any authority rebel, at any level, walks all over them, with ease.

 

At least someone answer me this: What could you possibly teach your teen that will cause him/her to be respectful of authority figures and behave appropriately, with no immediate enforcement?

[swansont]

I think you're several years too late in the "how do I instill respect for authority" game if you're discussing the "oldest teen." Why are you looking to the school to do this job? I can't recall anything from middle school and high school that would have been made better with teachers empowered to employ corporal punishment.

[Phi for All]

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts were about corporal punishment in public school.

 

I've been utterly frustrated with the ineffective disciplinary techniques used by public schools today - which has degenerated to sending them home for a vacation (ususally called suspension), or tattle telling to the parents. Because they are impotent and can only utilize the carrot - no stick to be found.

No detention? Sending teens home when both parents are probably working sounds unreasonable.

 

I heard that my old junior high has a detention program where the consequences are appropriate; if you get caught throwing food in the lunch room, you're put on lunchroom cleanup detail. It's effective because *everyone* has rotating lunchroom cleanup duty, but detainees will take your turn for you. There are fewer food fights because all the kids know what a PITA it is to clean up afterwards.

 

At least someone answer me this: What could you possibly teach your teen that will cause him/her to be respectful of authority figures and behave appropriately, with no immediate enforcement?

Mine's not a teen yet, but the most effective technique with Her Rebel Highness is to make her the authority figure and ask how she'd deal with it. She almost always responds more strenuously than I would have.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I'm with swansont on this one. I attend public high school myself, and I can't think of anything you could do to students to make them start respecting their authorities. That's something you have to start when they're not even in school yet.

 

You can, however, make things a little better by adding in extra consequences when the school sends your kid home. Pick something he loves (the Internet, for example), and cut him off from it for a week. (Being grounded is nothing to a teenager. Virtual groundings may be worse.) Threaten to have the cell phone company turn off text messaging on his phone -- and follow through with it.

 

Of course, you may only succeed in making him hate you.

[ParanoiA]

I think you're several years too late in the "how do I instill respect for authority" game if you're discussing the "oldest teen." Why are you looking to the school to do this job? I can't recall anything from middle school and high school that would have been made better with teachers empowered to employ corporal punishment.

 

I expected that answer, as I realize how the question sounds. Actually, we're fighting nature here. Short of an all out military style upbringing, he's got rebellion bred in the bone. All of the men on my Dad's side of the family are strong independent types, question authority, and etc.

 

My parents were both working folk, with high standards and expectations - I just wasn't having it. I was always in trouble and they did the best they could. They took me to therapists, workshops - the whole nine yards. Honestly...I was smarter than they gave me credit for. I could see through all of these therapists' questions and chose my answers according to what I wanted them to know or think. School was boring and being the "short" kid, I used humor and rebellion to get friends. Mine is doing the exact same thing.

 

I recall many things from middle school and high school that were made better with teachers empowered to whip my ass. You don't blurt out curse words to get laughs, nearly as often, when the teacher has proven to paddle you for such things. Same with others.

 

He doesn't act like this around me. And he's never been outright disrespectful until his teens. I can't go to school with him. Rebellious kids are not going to give up their rebellious nature or tendency when mom and dad aren't around - when the stick is not there to enforce order.

 

So, I understand your answer, as an impulse, but it's just not accurate reflection of our parenting.

 

You can, however, make things a little better by adding in extra consequences when the school sends your kid home. Pick something he loves (the Internet, for example), and cut him off from it for a week. (Being grounded is nothing to a teenager. Virtual groundings may be worse.) Threaten to have the cell phone company turn off text messaging on his phone -- and follow through with it.

 

Yeah, this is all in place. My punishments are about levels of privilege. Which, incidentally, is exactly what the psychologists at a local behavior therapy institute here in town recommend. I take away privileges, or restrict them and give them back when they've earned them, dig themselves out of trouble.

 

Works great on my younger teen, and worked on both of them all of this time until now that my oldest has discovered his school can't make him do anything and none of my punishments are bad enough to make an "appearance" at that crucial moment when they weigh the future consequences against the immediate reward of accolades by the class.

 

I really feel that's the crux of the issue. Teens live in the moment. I know I never considered the amount of trouble I'd get in with my parents later - that never stopped me from doing the wrong thing now. If the punishment is not as immediate as the reward, I don't see how a teen will actually consider it. Unless, of course, the punishment is disproportionately outrageous.

 

I'd like to hear from someone who has a more rebellious natured teen. Not typical teen angst - that's common and those parents really can't relate, everything seems rather simple to them. "Typical" behavior would seem to be the goal of the design intent of any school system. So, naturally, they think it works fine.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I think the problem with many parental punishment programs is that they're only enacted after the fact. If the teen knows exactly what he's getting into before he does anything (rather than just knowing "my parents will kill me"), he may think twice.

[ParanoiA]

I think the problem with many parental punishment programs is that they're only enacted after the fact. If the teen knows exactly what he's getting into before he does anything (rather than just knowing "my parents will kill me"), he may think twice.

 

Hmm, you may have a point there. I know I've always shied away from the notion because I didn't like the idea of them knowing their exact punishment and then weighing the consequences. But now that you mention it, it actually makes sense, since that's exactly what I want him to do - think and weigh and choose wisely.

 

Good suggestion.

[iNow]

Along those same lines, you can let him know what type of reward there will be if after some given duration (1 month, 3 months, etc.) he has not engaged in the behaviors you wish to extinguish.

 

Punishment works best when delivered IMMEDIATELY... and I mean within the microsecond. Bad behavior -> Immediate shock to the testicles -> behavior stops. Each passing moment between the behavior and the punishment decreases the effectiveness of that punishment (in terms of behavior modification).

 

Variable schedule reinforcement of good behavior is certainly best, but there is no "one size fits all" solution.

 

I just wanted to say that, in addition to making known what the punishment will be, you might gain some traction by rewarding good behavior with something meaningful (to him) as well.

 

I don't have kids. The above is purely academic, so please treat it as such. Best of luck, mate.

[antimatter]

I'm currently going through Public School, and while I've never had a suspension (I have had a few detentions, all given by the art teacher after breaking a ruler during a 'durability test'), I do know lots of people who've gotten suspensions, and usually that works.

Well, it worked for a friend (dark matter), though there are those trouble-makers in our school that continue their tomfoolery almost minutes after getting out of suspension.

In our school they employ the 'ISS' idea; rather than sending a student home, they sit in a little white room all day! Obviously not as good as spending a swell day out of school playing Half-Life 2.

[swansont]

 

So, I understand your answer, as an impulse, but it's just not accurate reflection of our parenting.

 

I was meaning that more along the lines of "making a teen learn to act respectful is more difficult than making a younger kid learn it" and not an indictment of your own parenting. Sorry of that came across that way. But I still think that corporal punishment by the school isn't the answer. I think you can punish your kid more effectively than a teacher can.

 

From what little I've learned on this matter, teens (and younger) don't have a fully-developed sense of decision-making. i.e. they don't decide to not do something because it's wrong, they decide not to do it because they think they'll get in trouble. So, if they don't think they'll get caught, or they don't care about the punishment, they are going to go ahead and do it. And lots of criminals act this way, as they never made it to the next step of maturity in this area.

 

I think one of the issues is that it's generally more difficult to become stricter than the other way around, and I saw this in the behavior of many 18- and 19-year-olds when I was teaching. If behavior that was once acceptable is suddenly deemed not acceptable, you're in for a rougher ride than if the behavior was never allowed.

 

Hmm, you may have a point there. I know I've always shied away from the notion because I didn't like the idea of them knowing their exact punishment and then weighing the consequences. But now that you mention it, it actually makes sense, since that's exactly what I want him to do - think and weigh and choose wisely.

 

Good suggestion.

 

 

You can always treat as a "mandatory minimum." Behavior X will result in punishment Y, at the very least.

[YT2095]

it depends on why Type of "rebel" he is too.

I was a rebel, and can honestly say that corporal punishment did absolutely Nothing to stop me, I had the Cane 36 times in one week for smoking behind the sports hall, not only did it not stop me , but also acted as an excuse not to take down notes or do homework because my hand was hurting too much (it wasn`t, but they couldn`t prove it).

 

needless to say they gave up that tactic, and it wasn`t until someone actually sat me down and explained WHY it wasn`t allowed rather than just say it Wasn`t because we said so! that I actually stopped smoking there.

they presented a reasonable and valid argument.

 

Yes I still continued to smoke, but not around other students where I could be seen.

[Dak]

hmm... your kid is in a place where he does not wish to be, and no-one's paying him. He's no doubt being expected to act like an adult, whilst not being treated like one.

 

Would you act any differently to him? I know i didn't, you didn't, I doubt i would now, and i suspect you wouldn't now.

 

Maybe, rather than teaching him respect for authority (which i suspect you yourself only have in small, claused amounts), teach him respect for others -- if others are trying to learn, it's rude to disrupt them -- and try to get across to him the value of an education.

 

hitting him with a cane is unlikely to improve anything (personally, id've just laxatived their coffy in retaliation, or maybe burnt their car down, and resorting to violence would certainly not have made me 'respect' authority).

[ecoli]

My mom's job is to tutor kids who get suspended... you wouldn't believe some of the things get vacation... uh, I mean suspended for these days.

 

There's the normal things like illness, some kid had to take over the family business after his dad had an almost fatal heart attack. These things are forgivable.

 

What I don't get, are the three girls who got three days of out of school suspension for drunk driving on school property! Shouldn't they get sent to prison for that? No... they got a couple of days at home, with a private tutor.

[CDarwin]

I feel like I should have some sort of deep insight into this being as I was a high school student as of a week ago. Really, I never got in trouble, though. I'm jsut that boring.

 

And really I can't think of any horribly endemic insubordination by the standards that seem to have been put forward here. Kids chattered in class (until told to shut up), there were a handful of fights a year, and the occasionally little incident. I've never seen a food fight, for example, or had a kid curse a teacher in front of me or any such thing. Yes, they were stupid, uncontrollable little monkeys, but, aren't they always? I went to a rural (semi-suburban) high school, though, maybe its different.

 

I've always subscribed to the notion that the best way to control a kid is just to break his spirit. You've got to get on that young too.

[stevo247]

I've always subscribed to the notion that the best way to control a kid is just to break his spirit. You've got to get on that young too.

 

Can you imagine a world full of broken spirits? Just look out the window.

 

Best way to get respect is to give it.

[CDarwin]

Can you imagine a world full of broken spirits? Just look out the window.

 

Best way to get respect is to give it.

 

Pah. Hippie.

 

[i was joking. I don't actually advocate breaking children.]

[stevo247]

Pah. Hippie.

 

[i was joking. I don't actually advocate breaking children.]

 

You know, people have been sent home for lesser offenses, Mr. Wisenheimer.

[ParanoiA]

You can always treat as a "mandatory minimum." Behavior X will result in punishment Y, at the very least.

 

That's a perfect compliment of both dilemas. I like that. Then he has a definite "minimum sentence" to weigh out during that crucial moment, with the possibility of it being worse depending on how bad his actions were.

 

Maybe, rather than teaching him respect for authority (which i suspect you yourself only have in small, claused amounts), teach him respect for others -- if others are trying to learn, it's rude to disrupt them -- and try to get across to him the value of an education.

 

Well, I have tried a variation on this. My latest tack has been to remind and instill in him that these teachers are people. Somebody's mom, or sister, or grandmother, daughter. I asked him if he would walk up to a little ole lady crossing the street and curse at her - of course he said no, and smiled at the absurdity. So, why curse at her when she's in a classroom rather than the sidewalk?

 

The other thing I've tried to do lately is to alter my take on rebellion. He's going to question authority, and nothing is really going to stop that. So I've tried to teach him to use respect, operate within the rules, and challenge with dignity. He does this with me quite well. That's partly why I'm baffled. If he disagrees with my rules, he makes his case respectfully and there are times I have reversed or altered them because he made a good argument. Maybe that was bad, since I'm sure that will never work with school policy.

 

Best way to get respect is to give it.

 

Makes a nice bumper sticker, but doesn't work on teens. I pointed this out to my teen as well. Teachers don't tell you to go **** yourself or call you a bastard and repeatedly tell you how stupid you are. Teachers DO give respect. We don't even think about it. They get cussed out, and figuratively spit on daily. I never see them lose it and resort to the level the teen age monsters do.

 

That is teaching by example. Even the "jerk" teachers lead by this example. But most teens don't give them the same level of respect they're given by default - even the ones like mine, who haven't even earned it.

 

I was surprised to see my son react to that point a little bit. Especially when I merged that point with the point of them being "people" - that deep down inside, many of these teachers that smile and deal with his insubordination may actually be wishing they could put their hands around his throat, but are "disciplining" themselves not to.

 

Punishment works best when delivered IMMEDIATELY... and I mean within the microsecond. Bad behavior -> Immediate shock to the testicles -> behavior stops. Each passing moment between the behavior and the punishment decreases the effectiveness of that punishment (in terms of behavior modification).

 

Oh my god. This is the coolest post of yours, ever. Hands down man. I get your point, though. And I think corporal punishment falls in that category of immediate consequence. Not sure about testicular shock therapy, but...

____________________________________________

 

Kind of losing track from the corporal punishment bit. The reason I like corporal punishment has to do with that I think it's appropriate for. My son didn't get suspended because he told a teacher to screw off, or blatanly disrespected an authority figure. He got suspended for blurting out a phrase in the middle of class, while they were watching some science documentary on rocks, that got laughs. Some chick on the film says "oh wow, that paper clip scratched that rock" - then my sons blurts out "no shit you idiot". And the class laughed and he got sent to the office, suspended.

 

That's overboard. His education is LESS important than that? To me, that's a couple of swats in the hallway.

[iNow]

Reading that last post, I'd suggest that the issue with your son is less about "lack of respect" for authority and more about "improving his social condition." If he's doing things to make people laugh, it means he's craving attention and wants to move up on the social hierarchy. Doing these things in the face of an authority figure (saying "no shite sherlock" during a movie, for example) implicity suggests to his audience of peers that he is stronger than said authority and is to be respected.

 

Earning the respect of a fellow teenager requires different tactics than earning the respect of a more mature adult.

 

 

 

To the OP, one of the challenges with corporal punishment is 1) subjectivity in application (teachers may go too far), and 2) the reaction of parents that children are their "property" and should not be touched by a 3rd party. Unfortunately, many times those same parents that rail against others "harming their child" don't tend to have very good control anyway, so it's this self-reinforcing melodrama.

[ParanoiA]

Reading that last post' date=' I'd suggest that the issue with your son is less about "lack of respect" for authority and more about "improving his social condition." If he's doing things to make people laugh, it means he's craving attention and wants to move up on the social hierarchy. Doing these things in the face of an authority figure (saying "no shite sherlock" during a movie, for example) implicity suggests to his audience of peers that he is stronger than said authority and is to be respected.

 

Earning the respect of a fellow teenager requires different tactics than earning the respect of a more mature adult.[/quote']

 

That does make a ton of sense. So much truth to that last sentence too.

 

It is true that he is a mini-me. We're shorter people, so we avoid the hazards of being picked on and shunned from the group by using humor and strength against authority. That's how I got "in".

 

Getting swats though, ruined that tactic. Well, sort of. On the one hand it was embarassing. But on the other, it was another opportunity to show how "the man" can't hurt me, by not crying or showing the pain. But, by and large, it screwed up my plan. By that time, I was already in, so I didn't have to do near as much of this in high school.

 

To the OP, one of the challenges with corporal punishment is 1) subjectivity in application (teachers may go too far), and 2) the reaction of parents that children are their "property" and should not be touched by a 3rd party.

 

Definitely reflects the distrust of each other in society today doesn't it? Well, it's not as if it wasn't earned. Teachers have gone too far in the past and helped to cement the notion that 3rd parties shouldn't touch their children.

 

I just wish I could sign a "beat his ass" exception slip.

[swansont]

Kind of losing track from the corporal punishment bit. The reason I like corporal punishment has to do with that I think it's appropriate for. My son didn't get suspended because he told a teacher to screw off, or blatanly disrespected an authority figure. He got suspended for blurting out a phrase in the middle of class, while they were watching some science documentary on rocks, that got laughs. Some chick on the film says "oh wow, that paper clip scratched that rock" - then my sons blurts out "no shit you idiot". And the class laughed and he got sent to the office, suspended.

 

That's overboard. His education is LESS important than that? To me, that's a couple of swats in the hallway.

 

Depends on whether this is an isolated incident or the culmination of a series of events. It's way over the top for a single incident. Some schools, though, have adopted "zero-tolerance" policies for some behaviors, which can result in some silly results (like no "illegal organizations" policies resulting in getting suspended for wearing a rainbow pin)

It allows (or forces) teachers to act without having to take responsibility, since there is absolutely no dynamic range to the punishment.

[ParanoiA]

Depends on whether this is an isolated incident or the culmination of a series of events. It's way over the top for a single incident. Some schools, though, have adopted "zero-tolerance" policies for some behaviors, which can result in some silly results (like no "illegal organizations" policies resulting in getting suspended for wearing a rainbow pin)

It allows (or forces) teachers to act without having to take responsibility, since there is absolutely no dynamic range to the punishment.

 

Well, there most certainly is an element of culmination of events. I know I've received a phone call on the matter, and I do believe he got an ISS for one day about two weeks prior to this. So, you're right in that it's not as if just out of nowhere they kicked him out for a little thing.

 

On the other hand, all of the pre-events were dealt with. We did punish, his school punished - he then served his time and then he's right back at it. (Well, he served his school's sentence, but he wasn't finished with mine)

 

It's weird because, if this were violent crime, he'd be locked away in an institute. If this were flagrant acts of disrespect in the form of cursing teachers out, refusing to cooperate, outright insubordination, then we'd be talking about drastic psychiatric intervention with professionals and people much smarter and equipped than I.

 

But we're talking about chronic inappropriate comedy - which certainly smacks of disrespect but in a more subtle form. Hard to see just how "horrible" it is, to the point he needs the same punishments as the hard core troubled teens.

[Ladeira]

Corporal Punishment isn't, absolutely, a good idea.

I mean, can't a sincere talking solve this? You might think he's too old for a simple talk. But I guess that if his family is close, things were supposed to be fine.

 

"For an inappropriate joke in the middle of class?" It's something that must be treated about at home. I don't think school will help you anyway. I know sending home is an absurd... but punishment is something very unusual nowadays.

 

IMO, the best you can do is trying to repair it at home... try to talk to your son and show him it's not right and he can do "jokes" when he's going out with friends and etc. (always showing the edges of "joke")

 

I'm a teenager of nowadays. So, that's just what I think.

[pioneer]

Here is an idea that might work. I would recruit the gang leaders, tough kids etc. and give them the responsibility to act as school patrol. You recruit a Marine sergeant, who will set up a hierarchy below him composed of the top playground chiefs. These chiefs already have their subordinates in line. This can ease some of the playground stress since their responsibility will require coordination with rivals. Then this group helps the teachers with the problem students. It is sort of police academy.

 

Students may not respect the authority of teachers because their authority has been watered down by lawyers and parents. But certain kids in school have respect. The school yard pecking order naturally allows students to know the who's who. One just needs to harnessed a system that is already in place. You mess with Miss Daisy, the word will get through the vine.

[stevo247]

How old is your son?

 

Am I correct to assume that he receives corporal punishment at home?

 

At what age does it cease?

 

Do you advocate corporal punishment for females?