The Importance of Directx 10

[MrTizzay]

Hi everybody, this is my first post on SFN, and I'm really glad to be here. I'll try to make some good threads, posts, etc. And lend what help I can to those who need it.

So, I'm a real computer geek at heart, but I'm essentially a gamer primarily, so most of my threads will be about such things.

 

Anyway, this thread addresses the importance of DirectX 10. As some might know, this is a Vista - exclusive piece of software that is really the gateway to nice effects for all games in the future. But, so far, its only been used in 3 games, and has been frowned upon by many gamers for being a Vista - exclusive, due to the fact that using Vista drastically reduces framerates to an intolerable level.

So, the question I pose is simple. What is your opinion on DX 10, and should it be Vista only? And how should it be responsibly used? And what does it mean for PC gaming as we know it?

[Pangloss]

Hi MrTizzay. Technically DX10 is a nice step forward. But it's saddled at the moment by a major lull in the PC gaming sub-industry. As I mentioned in another thread yesterday, all the emphasis in game development right now is in the 7th-gen consoles (XBox 360, PS3 and Wii). The developers love it because they know what the target system will be (no driver issues, no moving performance targets, etc), and they don't have to worry about piracy. And gamers love it because it breaks the cycle of "endless upgrading", and the current generation of systems are so well done, plus they match so nicely with current home theater equipment. (I've been playing Grand Theft Auto 4 on an 8-foot high defition projected screen with digital surround sound, and it's just the mother of all gaming experiences.)

 

But there are distinct advantages to PC gaming, such as the infamous keyboard-and-mouse aiming advantage (though it does make strafing harder), or the fact that the assumed keyboard (and corresponding table space that's not always present in a living room) has major implications for online gaming.

 

So I think PC gaming will likely make a major come-back, and there are some big titles on the way (including, ironically, GTA4). From a technical perspective I think this is probably a good thing, because the economical-technology dynamic of PC gaming is what made the 7th-gen consoles possible in the first place. We need that give-and-take between the two worlds to push the technology forwards.

[MrTizzay]

You make some really excellent points, and the fact of endless upgrading that you point out especially hurts me, but is completely justified, considering I myself am looking into an upgrade of my GPU considering mine got fried in a lightning storm.

And a huge kudos to you for being able to afford that kind of setup for playing GTA IV. I would kill for that setup.

The only thing I have to respectfully disagree with is your comment about PC gaming making a comeback. I personally believe that PC Gaming has never really been "behind" console gaming, and that in technicality console gaming is really only more popular due to ease of use and the cheaper price. So hundreds of people have leaped onto the bandwagon, and now the industry is more focused on consoles. Which is not so much a bad thing, considering that makes the consoles much more open to bad games (talking to all Wii owners). Of course, that works in reverse and console gamers get such as GTA IV first.

[Pangloss]

I'm not sure I see where we disagree. That sounds like what I was saying.

[antimatter]

I'm not sure I see where we disagree. That sounds like what I was saying.

 

He was disagreeing with your comment on how PC gaming has fallen behind.

He says that he believes PC gaming was always on top.

[Pangloss]

Well yes but then he goes on to agree that console gaming is more popular and receives more attention from developers, so it sounds like we agree about what the current situation is.

 

Does anybody really disagree with the statement that PC gaming has fallen behind? There've been dozens if not hundreds of new titles over the last couple of years that skipped the PC completely but broke entirely new technical and and contentual ground on the console front. Some of those breakthrough games that did make it to the PC were developed and released initially for the console, and it shows in the reduced quality and sometimes bizarre controls. The only real ground-breaking that's been done on the PC front for several years now has been in the area of MMOs.

 

I think PC gaming is poised for a big come-back, but that's the current situation. One other factor weighing in here is the influence of Microsoft's cross-platform development tools, which have not only given the XBox 360 a development advantage, they've also brought about signs of change in development tools for the PS3 and Wii, which may ultimately lead to better development tools for other kinds of programming as well. They're already influencing development for cellphones and other information appliances. One has only to look at the development history of Bioshock or Mass Effect to see how that can play out, benefiting both PC players and console gamers.

[antimatter]

I don't think it's even been obscured by consoles.

If you look at the last 5 years or so, you'll see that some of the greatest achievements in video gaming have been for PC (Half-Life 2, BioShock, Crysis).

A lot of PC games then have been ported to consoles.

[MrTizzay]

Well, the main issue with saying that the biggest developments have been on the PC is the fact that there has been essentially an equal amount of games that have been ported to consoles as there has been games that have been ported to PC. Why developers choose which way is beyond me.

But overall games that have been ported to the consoles have had been dumbed down (I.E. = Bioshock, HL2, F.E.A.R., Far Cry, etc.) and games that have been ported to PC have been upgraded (I.E. = COD 4, Halo 2, etc.) And another thing to point out is that both of those examples (COD 4 and Halo 2) are franchises that were born on the PC.

[Pangloss]

I don't think it's even been obscured by consoles.

If you look at the last 5 years or so' date=' you'll see that some of the greatest achievements in video gaming have been for PC (Half-Life 2, BioShock, Crysis).

A lot of PC games then have been ported to consoles.[/quote']

 

It's the other way around. Console games get developed and PC clients are built either alongside or afterwards, to broaden the marketability. Crysis is a rare exception, and Doom 3 might be another one you could toss out here. But the others you mentioned actually support my point, being developed primarily with consoles in mind.

 

The primary development focus has been on the consoles, and that's where most of the ground-breaking work has been for the past few years. Just look at the procedurally-generated animation techniques used in Grand Theft Auto IV -- there's nothing like that in any PC game. There WILL be, but not yet. Even those titles that did break ground and were seen on the PC, like Bioshock, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed and others, were clearly developed primarily with the consoles in mind. And don't even get me started on racing or sports games, where a lot of new and interesting stuff is going on, most of which the PC never even sees.

 

And of course none of the Wii games see PC activity, for obvious reasons -- that's a whole area of hardware development completely lost to the PC. But it's still very good gaming, and very new tech.

 

The only way to see PC gaming being "on top" is to ignore most of what's going on in the field. Which is easy to do if you don't own a console, I realize -- non-owners may not be aware of all the titles out there and what ground they may be breaking. The ultimate evidence of this is just the fact that PC gamers have to wait so long for new titles, wheras console owners are being inundated with them.

 

Grand Theft Auto IV made half a billion dollars in its first week of sales.

 

Well, the main issue with saying that the biggest developments have been on the PC is the fact that there has been essentially an equal amount of games that have been ported to consoles as there has been games that have been ported to PC. Why developers choose which way is beyond me.

But overall games that have been ported to the consoles have had been dumbed down (I.E. = Bioshock, HL2, F.E.A.R., Far Cry, etc.) and games that have been ported to PC have been upgraded (I.E. = COD 4, Halo 2, etc.) And another thing to point out is that both of those examples (COD 4 and Halo 2) are franchises that were born on the PC.

 

Yes, but all of the above is old information/status. Years ago. The Halo franchise is on Halo 3 now, and that game won't even be produced for the PC. Half-Life 2 was released in 2004 and is the last major port-from-PC title that I can remember -- that sort of thing is really rare now; even the Orange Box re-release was done primarily with the consoles in mind, with most of its titles developed primarily for the 360.

 

I could see an argument for F.E.A.R., being "only" 3 years old and clearly developed for the PC and ported to the consoles. But as with Doom 3 and the Cry-engined stuff, it's all first-person shooters, where the PC has the infamous aiming advantage. FPSs haven't done as well on consoles for that reason. But that's really just a very small segment of the field.

[MrTizzay]

Well, this thread is heating up, isn't it?

But, again, Pangloss brings up good points. The consoles do see a lot more games in shorter amounts of time than PC users. But, alas, this is because the consoles are prime ground for getting a game out there due to the wider audience, most of which is completely populated by complete and utter n00bs who really aren't gamers. And this is the crux of PC gaming. PC gaming is the province of people like me who can't stand consoles due to the lack of features and annoying bandwagon gamers.

I read a lot of magazines and I get a ton of RSS feeds, I know my game news. That is something no one should doubt. And yes, I myself have owned many a console in my few days. So I know of the consoles.

And GTA IV sold so many copies due to two things:

Anticipation

Sick bastards who want to kill the prostitutes.

[Pangloss]

No heat at all, believe me, I just think it's an interesting subject. I'm a die-hard PC gamer, believe me, and I've been as shocked as anybody at how fast this has happened. The good news, though, is that everyone who works in the business seems to be aware that PC gaming is worth saving, and are unequivocally devoted to bringing those new developments back to PC gaming. And when it comes to first-person shooters, real-time strategy games, or turn-based strategy games, the PC has no equal, and everyone in the business seems to know it, even as RTS/TBS/FPS producers continue to try putting those kinds of titles on the consoles (even Sid Meier is getting into the act, with a version of Civ for the consoles).

 

I completely agree with MrTizzay's post above, even about GTA4 being "sick". I've been playing it over the last few nights, and as fascinating as it is technically, I feel like I have to take a shower afterwards. It's got a great story, though -- Martin Scorsese territory there -- and some great voice acting.

 

But I digress. I wanted to just give a few examples of ground-breaking console games that at best get ported to the PC, if the PC sees them at all. This isn't meant as any sort of heirarchical list, and of course many of these games may not be everyone's cup of tea. But remember gaming is a huge industry -- bigger than movies. It has many sub-genres, many of which the PC never sees.

 

Burnout Paradise

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnout_Paradise

- Very new multiplayer techniques, with joining/departing from MP games without even *stopping your car*

- Cool approach to mission engagement

- Very engaging speed illusion effect at high resolution on a big screen

 

Assassin's Creed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin%27s_creed

- New approach to "free roam" gaming

- New approach to multi-ability combat (special attacks)

- Innovative "hide in plain sight" hiding and blending concept

- First really decent "parkour" game

 

Grand Theft Auto IV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_theft_auto_iv

- Procedural animation techniques (instead of rag dolls -- NPCs react to their physical environments, damage, etc)

(Lots of other innovations)

 

Army of Two

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Two

- Two-player cooperative game play in a first-person shooter style game

 

Guitar Hero and Rock Band series of games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_hero#Guitar_Hero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Band_%28video_game%29

- Innovative "party" game that has spawned a whole cottage industry, none of which is available to PC gamers (though there's talk about Guitar Hero 3 being ported to the PC)

 

New "Combat" and "Theater of War" type games:

Call of Duty Series

- Started on the PC, but all PC development abandoned, with 3 and 4 only on consoles

Gears of War series

- Ported to PC thanks to XNA Studio development, but clearly developed for consoles

 

"Sports" games unavailable on the PC:

- All the 2K Sports titles, such as Major League Baseball 2008, with fascinating new AI, team management and even announcers that are actually watching and commenting on the game in real time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_2K8

- The Madden titles are clearly being developed for the consoles and simultaneously ported to the PC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madden_NFL_08

 

"Platform" games, which hardly ever make it to the PC at all:

Ratchet and Clank series (exclusive to PS2/3)

Mario franchise and all related games (now exclusive to Nintendo consoles and no longer ported to PCs)

 

"Fighting" games, which have similarly never really found purchase in PC gaming.

(No need to cite examples, but they're some of the most popular and heavily sold games in the business, such as with the new Wii release Smash Brothers Brawl, which broke records.)

 

You get the idea.

 

----------

 

Another thing that's been really interesting to follow has been the innovative way that consoles get young developers started. The combination of XNA Studio and XBox Live is really powerful. You can whip up your own custom game and "ship" it immediately to over ten million consumers without even getting up from your computer. That's insanely cool. But that doesn't just help console gaming, it also helps PC gaming, because it's the same basic tool set.

 

PC Gamers are going to owe Microsoft a huge debt of gratitude in the near future.

Edited May 31, 2008 by Pangloss
multiple post merged

[Rakdos]

(though there's talk about Guitar Hero 3 being ported to the PC)

This is a bit more than talk.

 

New "Combat" and "Theater of War" type games:

Call of Duty Series

- Started on the PC, but all PC development abandoned, with 3 and 4 only on consoles

 

 

This also begs to differ

[MrTizzay]

PC Gamers are going to owe Microsoft a huge debt of gratitude in the near future.

 

I hate to point out the obvious, but Microsoft is a PC software company first and foremost, and they have been publishing PC games long before the Xbox was even a glimmer in their eye.

[Pangloss]

Of course, but my point was that the new development tools that they're pioneering allow for rapid cross-platform application development. Games can be co-developed for both the 360 and the PC much more easily than can happen with other combinations of platforms. There are some major shortcomings, but those are clearly being pursued with great haste and focus (like graphic engines not being easily integrated into XNA Studio, no built-in modeling tools, the continued lack of standards amongst tool sets, etc).

 

Consider what companies have to do in order to produce a game simultaneously for the PS3 and PC, or the Wii and PC. There's a lot of wheel-reinventing going on up and down the development chain. It's pretty ugly. The new integration approach used by Microsoft is almost certainly going to be copied for use in other development environments. They'll simply have to, if they want to remain competitive.