Judaism in Israeli politics (split from Wobbleheads)

[Rev Blair]

Judaism is a religion, not a nationality.

 

I have to kind of disagree with that. The Jews I know...mostly secular, many agnostic or atheist...celebrate a lot of Jewish culture outside of religion.

 

I think they (the people I know) are kind of a hybrid between nationality and religion. I'm not sure whether that's a fact in the larger Jewish community, or a local thing, but I tend to think it's pretty widespread.

 

Most of them (again, Jews I know personally) disagree rather harshly with the government of Israel re: Palestine as well, for what that's worth.

 

In a lot of ways they remind me of the Ukrainian community here...very difficult to separate culture from religion, but as the religion filters out over generations, the culture remains.

[mooeypoo]

Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. And suggesting that Jews are not "normal men" is racism.

 

Why are you concerned with the distinction? And when you say "wobbleheads", are you referring to people who just agree with whatever they hear in the media or do you have another definition?

 

Actually, Phi, Judaism is a culture, not just a religion. I am an atheistic Jew - I feel culturally connected to the history and cultural habits of my people, but do not follow the religious belief.

Like me there are many many more.

 

Not that it has anything to do with stupid people making stupid racist claims. I just wanted to make that point

 

That said, I can't believe you guys are continuing this thread after mister wobblehead is banned

 

~moo

[ecoli]

Actually, Phi, Judaism is a culture, not just a religion. I am an atheistic Jew - I feel culturally connected to the history and cultural habits of my people, but do not follow the religious belief.

Like me there are many many more.

I would like to amend Mooey's correction by saying that Judiasm isn't a culture, but it's many cultures. There's probably more cultures and brands of Judaism then most people are aware of.

for ex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_denominations

[mooeypoo]

I would like to amend Mooey's correction by saying that Judiasm isn't a culture, but it's many cultures. There's probably more cultures and brands of Judaism then most people are aware of.

for ex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_denominations

I guess so, indeed, though there is some collective base-culture to all of them that unite all cultural jews to one general culture, I'd say.

 

Many of the holidays are celebrated slightly differently, but with teh same "spirit" to them, as reflected by both stories, folklore and shared (and unique) histories.

 

But yeah, it's true, like any other culture and peoples, we are diverse.

 

I must say, btw, the discussion of what constitutes a Jew is not limited to just this forum Jewish organizations host Scolars to debate this question philosophically. Over the years the global "term" "Jew" has 'evolved' and changed, and there are lots of philosophical arguments about who is and who isn't jewish even within the Jewish community/culture/religion/people.

 

BTW, ecoli - Happy Shavu'ot.

 

 

 

~moo

[Kyrisch]

Yep. There are even some hard feelings within the Jewish community. For instance, many Orthodox groups refuse to recognise their Reform counterparts as 'real Jews'.

[ecoli]

Yep. There are even some hard feelings within the Jewish community. For instance, many Orthodox groups refuse to recognise their Reform counterparts as 'real Jews'.

For most people, it's not really as hateful as that.

They don't want to accept reform conversions and marriages, especially in terms of immigration to Israel, which as become a real hot-button issue over there. You probably won't find many orthadox Jews who will spit in a reform person's face simply by virtue of not being orthadox.

 

Interestingly enough, the Chassidic, who are probably the most closely observant of all, seem to be the most accepting out of any of them. (at least in my experience.

[mooeypoo]

Yep. There are even some hard feelings within the Jewish community. For instance, many Orthodox groups refuse to recognise their Reform counterparts as 'real Jews'.

That, however, is driven by religion, not by culture. Religion is similar everywhere, sadly, as a concept of "I'm right and all who disagree are wrong!"

 

But I must say, in Jewish *RELIGION* the "concept" of who is jewish is quite more clear cut. It is the secular jews that try to philosophize about it and evolve the archaic terms into a more pluralistic culture that (we hope) we evolved into.

 

In religion, for example, the rule is that if your mother is Jewish, you are jewish. you may be "bad" jew if you don't follow God's commands, but you are still jewish. Ask any rabbi the "trouble" starts when seculars start wondering what would happen to a child that is raised by the cultural jewish mentality, in a "jewish home" so-to-speak, but his father is jewish and his mother isn't. Or neither of his parents are, just their grandparents, or somethign like that. That's where the discussions arise. And since there is a VERY large majority of secular jews nowadays, the discussion goes on to MUCH MUCH more than just the religion part of it.

 

You probably won't find many orthadox Jews who will spit in a reform person's face simply by virtue of not being orthadox.

Orthodox jews consider reform jews as jewish, just not GOOD jews (hence, they don't think they 'obey god's laws as they should' or whatever. The difference in that aspect is that even religious jews don't consider judaism as purely a religion.

 

That, if nothing else, is interesting by itself, imho.

 

 

 

Of course... I disagree with it.. but it's still interesting.

 

~moo

[ecoli]

Moo- I think a bigger problem, is that Orthadox Jews won't accept a conversion by a reform rabbi. Which is a big problem for people applying for ISraeli citizenship under the right of return. I've read stories of Refrom Jewish americans having to go through a great deal of trouble trying to 'prove' the 'Jewishness' of their great grandmothers, by hiring PIs to go hunting through cemeteries back in the US, for example.

[mooeypoo]

Moo- I think a bigger problem, is that Orthadox Jews won't accept a conversion by a reform rabbi. Which is a big problem for people applying for ISraeli citizenship under the right of return. I've read stories of Refrom Jewish americans having to go through a great deal of trouble trying to 'prove' the 'Jewishness' of their great grandmothers, by hiring PIs to go hunting through cemeteries back in the US, for example.

 

Again, this is a RELIGION problem. Setting aside the controversial (and, in my opinion, sad) fact that some of the rules in Israel are still following *one* of the denominations (and are religious. Mark: NOT ALL LAWS.. it's not a religious state per se..), if you don't care about what they accept as a denomination, then it doesn't quite matter what they think.

 

The argument over the israeli laws is a legal problem that the civilians in israel are fighting against. The fact that Gay Marriage is now accepted legally is a step forward (huge!). The fact you can bypass those religiously-supported dumb rules by state-solutions (like getting married beyond the border and coming back to a whatever-religious-ceremony-you-choose) is another step.

 

It's not a lost battle, it's just not over yet.

 

I wouldn't say it defines judaism, though. It's an entirely different problem or defining what the State of Israel is, not quite what Judaism is. And the subject is much more complicated, too. A lot of the immigrants from the former soviet union in the latest immigration just "claimed" to be jewish while they're utterly not (even if their parents were). There are lots ofproblems with that, too, specifically due to some antisemetic events happening from some of that same community lately.

 

So.. it's more complicated that that, but I would separate the two issues of defining what and who is jewish and defining what the state of israel should and shouldn't follow or accept.

 

 

 

~moo

[ecoli]

Orthodox jews consider reform jews as jewish, just not GOOD jews (hence, they don't think they 'obey god's laws as they should' or whatever. The difference in that aspect is that even religious jews don't consider judaism as purely a religion.

But it's still a subjective problem...

 

Afterall, there's no commandment saying I'm not allowed to drive my car to the temple on Shabbes... so I have no problem doing so. If I didn't drive there, I just wouldn't go.

 

An orthadox can pull out the place where it says on the sabbath, nothing should be completed, and make the comparison to circuits or combustion engine in the car.

 

I can turn that around and call them hypocrites for putting a timer on their electric lights.

 

None of that accomplishes much (unless it's a purely philosophical debate) except divide us. But, it goes to show that no one is really "jewish enough." It's just that some people intepret the book one way, and some of us do it another way.

What irks me, is that, especially in Israel, one intepretation is predominant, which affects the lives of the other interpretations.

 

 

EDIT: I have the distinct feeling that we're arguing about something, but I can't figure out what it is. Typical Jewish trait, perhaps ?

[mooeypoo]

But it's still a subjective problem...

 

Afterall, there's no commandment saying I'm not allowed to drive my car to the temple on Shabbes... so I have to problem doing so. If I didn't drive there, I just wouldn't go.

 

An orthadox can pull out the place where it says on the sabbath, nothing should be completed, and make the comparison to circuits or combustion engine in the car.

Actually, the commandment states that you shouldn't do any WORK. I can see how they consider that work... but that's also why I said that the discussion of who is and who isn't a jew is done by philosophers in the SECULAR community. I don't quite care (or, shall I say, I care LESS) about people who read the bible as they please. The problem I have with the religious jews is that they seem to monopolize judaism, and here it becomes MY problem. I consider myself jewish by culture. The monopoly over who is and isn't jewish is NOT theirs.

 

It is also why I have no trouble at ALL reading and analyzing the bible. For me, it's a cultural archaic manuscript. Not to be taken literally, but interesting just like any other mythological book, and more so for me because of my culture.

 

Religious folk claim I don't know what I'm talking about. I claim they don't own Judaism. I am not the only one. That's my point

 

 

I can turn that around and call them hypocrites for putting a timer on their electric lights.

 

None of that accomplishes much (unless it's a purely philosophical debate) except divide us. But, it goes to show that no one is really "jewish enough." It's just that some people intepret the book one way, and some of us do it another way.

What irks me, is that, especially in Israel, one intepretation is predominant, which affects the lives of the other interpretations.

 

I don't argue whether they are or aren't jewish, I argue that their opinion is not necessarily the one that COUNTS.

 

Not for the culture, and not for the laws of the state. that's where, in my opinion, the battle lies.

 

 

And it's also why this question isn't as simple as a lot claim (or think) it is. I personally think that the mere discussion is a good thing.. philosophy was always a nurtured side of judaism, and the fact there is a growing movement in the culture that tries to redefine and refine the meaning of cultural jews according to modern times is beautiful imho.

 

I am not religious, and yet I am jewish. The monopoly over judaism has LOOONNNGGGG passed from the hands of the orthodox, no matter which "denomination" they belong to.

 

Now we just need to convince those who change the laws of the STATE of Israel to follow suit. I think the battle, so far, is taking encouraging turns (like the gay rights rules and supreme court decisions about marriages), but it's far from over.

 

 

~moo

 

Edit: We're not arguing, we're discussing, I actually find it very interesting. But now I need to sleep laila tov.

[ecoli]

Actually, the commandment states that you shouldn't do any WORK. I can see how they consider that work...

Well, I always took that personally to mean don't do work as in don't go to your job (though if you can get a more accurate translation for me, that would be great). So, I don't go to work on saturdays (well, I usually don't). But, I do use my stove and drive my car and study for exams... Ok, I usually just sit in my pajamas all day and watch movies, but you get my drift.

 

Ironically, I've noticed that, when I'm in temple, the only person I see working, and thus violating the rule is (besides for the janitors) the rabbi and other clergy. We pay them for their services on Shabbes (leading the service, etc.). How are they exempt from this rule. I assume its the same deal in Orthadox communities.

 

 

As an aside, Another irony about the drivign to work delimma is that, if anything, driving a car takes up less energy (in terms of individual calorie consumption) than walking does. So, by driving, I'm actually doing less work. OF course, the counter argument, is that walking and being able to smell the flowers is more in the spirit of the sabbath than driving at high speeds. Cars have allowed Judiasm to spread out, which compromises Jewish cultural identiy, perhaps. But I think that's better than getting completely overwhelmed by the 'secular world.'

 

but that's also why I said that the discussion of who is and who isn't a jew is done by philosophers in the SECULAR community. I don't quite care (or, shall I say, I care LESS) about people who read the bible as they please. The problem I have with the religious jews is that they seem to monopolize judaism, and here it becomes MY problem. I consider myself jewish by culture. The monopoly over who is and isn't jewish is NOT theirs.

On the other hand, (and I'm playing the devil's advocate here) why should those in the secular community get to decide who's Jewish? They've made their choice to opt out of religious observance, so no matter how well versed they are in Jewish law, do they have the 'spiritual credits' to make such a judgement?

 

So, I'm thinking that either all opinions have to be tested in a democratic process, or religious considerations has to be thrown out of the government altogether, no matter how important laws like the right of return have been.

 

I think this may have important implication for military service as well.

 

 

I don't argue whether they are or aren't jewish, I argue that their opinion is not necessarily the one that COUNTS.

But, then again, if you're not religious, why should you be allowed to make laws that wind up governing how the religion behaves?

 

I'm not saying what you think... I just think this is a compelling argument for the separation of church and state.

 

 

I am not religious, and yet I am jewish. The monopoly over judaism has LOOONNNGGGG passed from the hands of the orthodox, no matter which "denomination" they belong to.

I don't know.. they still seem to have a lot of pull. If the constituency changes though, will they (the orthodoxy rabbinate) still hold power, by virtue of already having it, or does the secular Jewish cultural movement is Israel have enough voting power to actually make changes?

 

PS - this thread no longer belongs in the psych section... moved to politics and pruned

[mooeypoo]

I just found this article, btw: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3045322,00.html about how secular jews in Israel turn to civil marriages and "alternative" cultural ceremonies. Although they are not considered by the law, the fact people offer - and take - these, helps the political struggle to make them part of the law.

 

The supreme court in Israel has made some interesting over-turns for laws that were, so far, religious (like gay rights, for example), so there is hope. I don't think defining Israel as a strictly religious country is a fair assessment. I also don't think it's a full fledged democracy.

 

On the other hand, it's only 60 years old. America seemed to struggle with racism and ant-gay laws much longer. I don't mean this as a taunt, I'm just saying that it seems to me that sometimes Israel seems to be judged by different criteria than other countries, and that's a bit unfair.

 

It's a new country, and it wasn't built on the religion; on the contrary, it was built, at first, on the ideas of the culture and protecting the people from racism that existed. The turn into religious rules actually grew when the religious parties worked their way into the system.

 

For example: When Israel was 'born', the agreement with the Orthodox jews was that each year 500 of their brightest students are given a "free pass" from joining the army. The Orthodox claimed that a 3-year army service leads a student away from their religion, so the founders of the country gave a 'pass' for 500 students.

 

Today, however, the orthodox jews take advantage of the passes and the rules and just don't sign up at all. Some of them CLAIM to study while what they actually do is go to work ("under the table", too, because they're not ALLOWED to work) - which also means that (1) they're not serving their country like everyone else and (2) they don't pay taxes on their income.

 

We actually have bumper stickers in Israel that say "Together in the Bank, Alone in the Tank" --- reffering to the orthodox jews who seem to try and take over the rules of the country without really contributing to it.

 

It's a battle, it's far from over, but it's also not out of the question to get a better, more pluralistic cultural judaism out of it. The fact that Jews keep debating the meaning of judaism is, by itself, contributing to the pluralism of the culture, and eventually the country.

 

A lot of people don't know that there's a very large group in Israel that fights off religious intolerance. People just hear on the news about the orthodox and religious and racist rules, and not about the other side that does exist (and quite strong, relatively).

 

And about the definition of a Jew -- well, it's not simple to either side. One of the leading cases to raise this debate in the first place was of a priest trying to come to Israel after the holocaust:

 

The entire point was that Jews, wherever they are, if they are running from prosecution or attack, or whatever, can get to safehaven in Israel. It's a noble idea, even if it's not being implemented correctly (show me one country that implements its values perfectly after 60 years of existence...). Then, a priest showed up and claimed he deserved citizenship. He stated that he was born jewish but his parents gave him away when he was a baby to a monestary, where he was raised as a christian through teh war, which is how he was saved.

 

He didn't define himself as a jew, he defined himself as a christian. He had no interest ni Judaism up until the borders of Israel were open almost 'automatically' (you become a citizen almost emmediately, if you request for it, if you are jewish) in israel.

 

That truly openned the discussion about what is a Jew. Some claimed he is jewish, because he was born jewish.. some claimed he converted, therefore he isn't - but that means that judaism is a religion, not only a culture - etc etc.

 

The discussion itself is useful.

 

Judaism, as a whole, is 'growing', from a religion to a more pluralistic culture, carrying the orthodox behind it screaming and kicking.

 

The discussion itself acts like a sort of 'checks and balances' for the religious extremists who try to hijack the country for their own agenda.

 

Just like the discussion itself about ethics, the government control, racism and homophobia in America is, by itself, a sort of 'checks and balances' to get the people aware and 'growing' with their own conscience.

 

These things take time.

 

~moo

[YT2095]

I am an atheistic Jew - I feel culturally connected to the history and cultural habits of my people, but do not follow the religious belief.

 

a better known Analog of that would be atheists that celebrate Christmas.

[iNow]

Doesn't that imply that all christrians celebrate christmas for nothing more than honoring christ's birth? I mean, there are plenty of christians who just like getting and giving presents and don't care much for what the even symbolizes, just like atheists. What's even funnier to me is that Jesus was most likely born in April anyway.

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_Jesus_born

[mooeypoo]

Doesn't that imply that all christrians celebrate christmas for nothing more than honoring christ's birth? I mean, there are plenty of christians who just like getting and giving presents and don't care much for what the even symbolizes, just like atheists. What's even funnier to me is that Jesus was most likely born in April anyway.

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_Jesus_born

 

Well, maybe. I have a general criticism for all religions. *all* organized religions, including the organized religion of Judaism.

 

I'm just saying that Judaism is a bit different than Christianity and some other religions in that in includes *MORE* than just a religion.

 

To be honest, I don't care what individuals believe in or do for their own rites of worship (the fact a lot of religions, including christianity and judaism, "stole" stuff from more ancient cultures and religions is quite known) - I just claim that it's not 'overriding' the fact that there IS a big group that tries, despite the religious folk, to evolve into the future.

 

There are many messages in each holiday - some choose to stick religion into them, some choose to celebrate them as cultural meanings (like me). The point, imho, is to make sure that there is enough freedom to allow both. It's not simple at all, but I think it's getting there. Slowly...

 

very slowly...

 

~moo

[Phi for All]

Actually, Phi, Judaism is a culture, not just a religion.

Let me ask you this: You're in NYC now, where there is a robust Jewish community influence. Does it differ from what you were used to growing up in Israel?

[ecoli]

Let me ask you this: You're in NYC now, where there is a robust Jewish community influence. Does it differ from what you were used to growing up in Israel?

There's about 1 and half million more Jews living in NYC than Jerusalem. Esp. in parts of Brooklyn (Kings County).