Neanderthals and Us

[CarolAlynn]

Did neanderthals really disapear, or did they just breed with modern humans to the point where they were one and the same once again. I read that scientists found a skeleton of a neanderthal that had modern human characteristics??? Also i dont think that neanderthals were a dim species compared to modern humans. They buried their dead with ritual, which is evidence of culture.

I think that if your of european descent you probably have a bit of neandethal in your genes, but hey thats just my own personal thought.

[insane_alien]

we(homo spaiens) out performed them from an evolutionary point of view. we moved in and forced them out. sure there would have been some interbreeding but breeding them out of existence would have resulted in a hybrid across the world rather than just homo sapiens we would have something that is a mix of both.

[SH3RL0CK]

As I understand it, there is disagreement on whether Cro-Magnon man forced out the Neanderthals, or whether there was some interbreeding.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

 

Possible theories for the fate of Neanderthals include the following:

 

1. Neanderthals evolved to a separate species which became extinct (see Neanderthal extinction hypotheses) and were replaced by early modern humans traveling from Africa.[47]

2. Neanderthals was a contemporary subspecies which incidentally bred with Homo sapiens and disappeared through absorption (see Neanderthal interaction with Cro-Magnons)

3. Neanderthals never split from Homo sapiens and most of their populations transformed into anatomically modern humans between 50-30 kya (see Multiregional origin of modern humans).

[CDarwin]

Did neanderthals really disapear, or did they just breed with modern humans to the point where they were one and the same once again. I read that scientists found a skeleton of a neanderthal that had modern human characteristics??? Also i dont think that neanderthals were a dim species compared to modern humans. They buried their dead with ritual, which is evidence of culture.

I think that if your of european descent you probably have a bit of neandethal in your genes, but hey thats just my own personal thought.

 

Old debate, there. Erik Trinkaus at Washington University is convinced that modern humans and Neanderthals interbred, and its him who has described that skeleton you're talking about. It's far from sure. Trinkaus is basing his analysis largely on limb proportions, and that's not much of a basis when mitochondrial DNA evidence seems to pretty much shut the door on Neanderthal contributions to modern human DNA. There are some odd Neanderthal skulls from the Middle East that seem to have some features reminiscent of modern humans' though. They give me the most pause.

 

Neanderthals certainly weren't brutish idiots. But that doesn't necessarily mean they interbred substantially with modern humans when they arrived on the European scene.

[CarolAlynn]

no it doesnt mean that, i think neanderthals are no longer with us for many reaons and interbreeding is only a small part. Other things took effect on their existance such as the end of the ice age for which they were well adapted. Modern humans were better at hunting on the open plains, and the neanderthal hunting grounds starting disapearing with the end of the ice age.

 

I had never heard about the skulls in the middle east, i will definitly do some reading on those, and thanks for pointing out who it was who discovered the skeleton, i was really just trying to remember it from a long time ago.

[lucaspa]

Did neanderthals really disapear, or did they just breed with modern humans to the point where they were one and the same once again. I read that scientists found a skeleton of a neanderthal that had modern human characteristics??? Also i dont think that neanderthals were a dim species compared to modern humans. They buried their dead with ritual, which is evidence of culture.

I think that if your of european descent you probably have a bit of neandethal in your genes, but hey thats just my own personal thought.

 

The genetic data is very clear that sapiens and neandertals are 2 separate species and there was no interbreeding to the point that Europeans have neandertal genes. That's not to suggest that an occasional neandertal Romeo and sapiens Juliet got together voluntarily or that an occasional sapiens male did not rape a neandertal female or vice versa. But genes old enough to belong to neandertals are simply NOT in human populations.

 

The fossil you are referring to was disputed as to what the characteristics really meant: 5. Ian Tattersall*, and Jeffrey H. Schwartz, Commentary Hominids and hybrids: the place of Neanderthals in human evolution PNAS 96, Issue 13, 7117-7119, June 22, 1999

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/13/7117

 

But that has been overtaken by the genetic data. The Multiregional Hypothesis (championed mostly by Milford), where sapiens arose by interbreeding of various pre-sapiens species in Africa, Europe, and Asia, has been disproved.

 

9. A Gibbons, Modern men trace ancestry to African migrants. Science 292:1051-1052, May 11, 2001. Y chromosome of EVERY person in the study could be traced to forefathers who lived in Africa 35,000 to 89,000 years ago. "one self-described 'dedicated multiregionalist,' Vince Sarich of the University of California, Berkeley, admitted: 'I have undergone a conversion -- a sort of epiphany. There are no old Y chromosomes lineages. There are no old mtDNA lineages. Period. It was a total replacement.' " In another study, Peter Underhill and colleagues analyzed 218 markers in 1062 men from 21 populations.Primary paper is Y Ke, B Su, D Lu, L Chen, H Li, C Qi, S Marzuki, R Deka, P Underhill, C Xiao, M Shriver, J Lell, D Wallace, RS Wells, M Selestad, P Oefner, D Zhu, W Huang, R Chakraborty, Z Chen, L Jin, African Origin of modern humans in east Asia: a tale of 12,000 Y chromosomes. Science 292: 1151-1153, May 11, 2001.

 

There are some odd Neanderthal skulls from the Middle East that seem to have some features reminiscent of modern humans' though. They give me the most pause.

 

Can you name these skulls? The data I have seen from Mt. Shkul is that neandertals and sapiens co-habited the same area for 60,000 years and there are no hybrids.

 

There are some older skulls showing the transition of H. erectus to neandertals:

Stenheim and Swanscombe, 250 Kya: called H. heidelbergensis but have characteristics of both erectus and neandertalis. Large brows and small cranium ( ~1200cc) but otherwise looks like neandertalis

Petroloma skull (complete): brow ridges and low forehead like erectus but not quite as primitive but not as derived as sapiens or neandertalis. Back of head resembles sapiens. 250 Kya

Ehrendorf in Germany and Saccopestore in Italy: mixture erectus and early neandertals, classed as archaic H. sapiens or H. heidelbergensis.

[CDarwin]

Can you name these skulls? The data I have seen from Mt. Shkul is that neandertals and sapiens co-habited the same area for 60,000 years and there are no hybrids.

 

I was referring to Amud 1 principally. It's a Neanderthal skull quite obviously, not a hybrid really you're correct, but it has some sapiens-like features that perplexed me. It's perhaps nothing.

 

http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/amud1.html

 

You see the projecting midface and occipital bun of a classic Neanderthal, which is why it is classified as such, but notice there is a chin. You don't see that in other Neanderthals or in earlier hominids.

[lucaspa]

I was referring to Amud 1 principally. It's a Neanderthal skull quite obviously, not a hybrid really you're correct, but it has some sapiens-like features that perplexed me. It's perhaps nothing.

 

http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/amud1.html

 

You see the projecting midface and occipital bun of a classic Neanderthal, which is why it is classified as such, but notice there is a chin. You don't see that in other Neanderthals or in earlier hominids.

 

I can't get to other pictures at the site to compare his other photos. In fact, can't even get to Amud1 from his index site! http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/hominids.html OK, found the problem. The site owner uses .com in the links but the site is now .net. So if I go to the links and then change .com to .net I can get the pictures. Thanks, CDarwin, this is a very useful site.

 

 

You think there's a chin? I don't see a projecting chin like H. sapiens. You still have a recessed chin. Go to http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/shanidar4.html and you get the same chin. Compare to http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/kowswamp1.html to see how the sapiens chin bone comes slightly in front of the teeth in the lower jaw.

Edited June 14, 2008 by lucaspa