Mooeypoo and Pinch Paxton's Delightful Enquiries into the Potential for Special Variation in Life Forms that Endure Ecological Isolation, For Instance Off-World Communities and Related Biological Manifestations

[Pinch Paxton]

@Mooeypoo

 

Don't you think that eyes will look the same as ours? I know that we use light as a vision tool, but what else could we use that is as fast as light? How else can we read light? We use lenses to view light all of the time, could we use some other things as effectively as lenses. Do you think that an Alien race might use electic impulses for vision? Basically I am saying that I think that all evolution leads you to eyes mainly, other things are less useful. I think that some things just have to evolve the way that they did on earth. Bats use sonar vision, but it is not good for seeing the moon, and stars, if that is important. Maybe eyes, and a few other parts just have to evolve similar to life on Earth.

 

Pincho.

[mooeypoo]

Pinch: No, I actually don't think they'll have eyes.

 

Or Ears.

 

Or even exist at the same dimention of us.

 

They can already be here and we just can't comprehend their existance, for all I know.

 

As I've said for a few times on other posts and threads, I find evolution VERY fragile. If you look at different kinds of the same lifeform (like humans, for instance) that lived in different places ON EARTH you find huge differences in their physiology. And no, please don't transform this to racism, it's not my point, i'm not saying one race is better or less important, i'm saying there are DIFFERENCES.

 

Differences that happened in SHORT time evolution (man kind doesn't exist all THAT long relatively to the entire universe, as you know) and yet quite appearant changes. So what I think is that if THAT is what happened *on* earth (the changes are not that massive..) I would find it weird if outside of earth in a COMPLETELY different environment, atrmosphere pressure, heat, different matters and molecules and ALL those - we will find such similar life forms out there.

 

 

We might find similar ones, but *i* think we have better chances in running into ones that are SO completely different we might not even reffer to them as life at first.

 

That's my POV.

 

~moo

[Sayonara]

Ever seen the controversial "United Colours of Benetton" advert with the three near-identical human hearts on it, labelled "black", "white" and "yellow"?

 

The differences between the physiology of different human races are pretty minimal. They are not anywhere near significant enough to even approach speciation, never mind qualify as dismilar forms of life.

[Pinch Paxton]

Small changes of appearance is not as extreme as not having eyes, or ears. We look like Dinosaurs if you count eyes, and ears as important. Yes I understand that all of our DNA is similar due to evolution, but how many different paths can evolution make? I like to look at computers as evolution as well. You need on/off switches, maybe binary code is essential to all computers, even on other planets. Watch independence Day, and they harm the alien ships with binary code. Some people think that it is extremely unlikely that it would work, and actually, it is unlikely that the code would activate the same switches inside the computer, but binary code seems important.

If you compare that with eyes, then you end up with certain requirements.

 

Pincho.

[Sayonara]

Again: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2378

 

Oh, and here: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1406

 

Eye related: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68

[mooeypoo]

If small appearance changes were still created through life in different places on EARTH (think about chinese vs. africans) then odds are we have much different life forms in extremely different environments.

 

Plus, I was talking about the same life forms.

Think about the differences between deep-ocean fish and pond fishes. Think about the differences between FISH and MEN (one atmosphere pressure difference?)

 

See my point? If you take extreme environments, you get extremely different life forms.

 

 

~moo

[Pinch Paxton]

@sayonara

 

Do You Believe There is Intelligent Life Beyond Earth?

 

This topic only has a yes/no answer if you stay on topic. You have to go through evolution to fill in the gaps.

 

@Mooeypoo

 

There isn't much difference between fish, and men really. Still have eyes, still have similar limbs. If life is extreme on another planet, like total darkness, that is actually an argument for eyes as well, because it suggests that only in total darkness do you not need eyes, and the chances are that the planet has some light.

 

Pincho.

[Sayonara]

@sayonara

This topic only has a yes/no answer if you stay on topic. You have to go through evolution to fill in the gaps.

Way to contradict yourself.

 

You are not discussing the factors that affect the chances of intelligent life off Earth, which is the topic of the thread. If it continues in this thread, I'll simply split off the posts and put them somewhere more appropriate. I don't need the least scientifically disciplined person in the thread telling me how to moderate.

[mooeypoo]

pinch,

 

I find the entire thing weird. How is it that ALL the life on earth - and the life outside earth, and everywhere - has the SAME life characteristics.

It's boring, and it's illogical.

 

Have you ever thought that there's a possibility we only comprehend our own "dimentions" - therefore we see SIMILAR things?

Watch the SPHERE (actually, much better to read the book, but i guess the point is relatively the same), they are talking about different life form that is in fact may be a THOUGHT.

 

We just can't comprehend it.

 

No one can acurately predict what's "out there" - I just find it illogical that it's all the SAME in such a huge universe.

 

~moo

[Sayonara]

If small appearance changes were still created through life in different places on EARTH (think about chinese vs. africans) then odds are we have much different life forms in extremely different environments.

At the risk of keeping this thread off-topic, I'd have to say I don't think there's much chance of the Chinese and Africans diverging any further. In fact they're likely to start converging, like everyone else on the planet.

 

Cumulative effects over time do result in wildly different creatures, yes, but that's not really going to be anything new to an exobiologist.

 

Imagine a humanoid alien living on Xxxxyyyup, looking at Earth through a giant telescope. He sees a gazelle curled up under a tree. He moves the telescope a bit and sees a crocodile waddling into a lake. Is he going to be surprised at such diversity? No. Is he going to wonder why gazelles and crocodiles on Earth aren't like gazelles and crocodiles on Xxxxyyyup? No - because there are no gazelles and crocodiles on Xxxxyyyup, and even if there were he wouldn't necessarily realise they were "equivalent" species.

 

If that makes any sense.

[Sayonara]

For those confused by the non sequitur start to the thread, this discussion began here:

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3503

[mooeypoo]

Sayonara:

 

I get what you're saying, but my view of this subject goes even further.

 

I don't think aliens are looking at us with telescopes, or eating food, or hearing music, or whatever it is we're doing, even if they do live on Xxxxyyyup and are fshhriingling instead of drinking.

 

I think that humans (and that's psychologically proved) cannot imagine anything they haven't encounter before - we can think about monsters that are made of different organs or shapes - but all are shapes and organs we've SEEN before.

 

We cannever imagine something we haven't encountered. No matter how hard you try, you always think of things that are made of objects you've seen. That's because our minds are not equiped to comprehend anything that is more than three dimentions.

 

The thouught that there are only three dimentions in the universe sounds stupid to me, and science also supports the theory of many many many more dimentions we are affected by, but can't truely comprehend.

 

So what I'm saying is that I don't think aliens out there (that are close enough to us to have already visit us) are even existing the way we are.

 

We might also encounter them and only comprehend "part" -- like see an alien that exists in the "form" of a consciousness alone - that exists in the 1004022040633425th dimention, but we will only see a sphere - since that is the "highest" 3-Dimentional object we can possibly comprehend.

 

 

Get my point? it's.. err.. well it's treating humans as idiots in comparison to the universe, I know, but I guess I actually do think we're idiots in comparison to the univrse. As frightening as it may sound

 

~moo

[Sayonara]

But without any evidence they exist (IE, some kind of observation) it's fairly pointless to speculate. If we can't perceive them we basically don't care that they're there, even if we know.

 

The reason exobiologists focus on known, less "exotic" life is because we have a fair idea how to find it, and there's precious little evidence that carbon-based cellular life is less or more prevalent in the universe than any other form.

[mooeypoo]

No no no.. I see what you're saying but I think you miss something:

 

1. The fact we don't comprehend doesn't mean we shouldn't try to, or ignore the aspects we don't understand.

2. He asked if there are life. My answer wasyes, but not the way we think of it.

3. We might be affected by those dimentions even if we dont comprehend them directly.

 

Other than that, I agree. I dont think I'll jump onto a rock and go "LIIIFFFEEE!@!!" on mars. Still, my *thought* should remain open minded

 

~moo

[Sayonara]

I'm saying there's compelling evidence that life as we know it exists off Earth, or at least can exist off Earth.

 

As possible as we can make it sound, there's no evidence of life that is not as we know it, and we can hardly strive to understand something we have not experienced in any way.

 

That's why the life under discussion is usually that which is familiar, is all I am saying.

[Pinch Paxton]

Intelligent life can be there in another dimension, and invisible to us, but it is not unimaginable. We can imagine anything. You have imagined it yourself Mooeypoo, and described what it would be like, although the shape could be anything, that is because we could only guess any shape, and there are millions of possible shapes for an unknown blob of imagination. Best to stick with planets though, they are more observable, otherwise we are making things from nothing, and even I don't make things from nothing.

 

Pincho.

[mooeypoo]

Sayo: The fact is that there couldn't BE any facts about life as we don't know it because we don't know it i know your point, i agree with you, and I think that in space explorations we should search for things we DO understand or it's pointless, Im just saying that the way of thinking SHOULDN'T deny other possibilities.

For instance, saying (and many many scientists say it) that viruses CANNOT come from space through an asteroid because they would die from the extreme heat is close minded.

We don't know that.

 

Saying that other life forms cannot move through walls is close minded, because we don't know what "dimention" they're existing in. Saying that extra terrestrials will have eyes is close minded. We don't know if they will need ones.

 

So I agree with you on the PRACTICAL matters, but since we're debating "pseudo/phylosophy", I must stress my point-of-view point.

As long as we accept the fact that things *can* be different than what we think, we can find them. If we think that everything out there is similar to us, we won't ever find the ones that are different, because we will probably deny them.

 

See my point?

 

And Pinch,

 

You missed my point. I didnt say we cant imagine other life forms, I said we cant imagine all the possibilities. Your imagination IS limited. Even when I give the example of a life form that exists as a "consciousness" I am using things we KNOW.

We know what consciousness is literally. We might know know how it LOOKS - but here comes the use of our imagination. If you think about it, you'll see that even the most abstract things you are using simple objects to manifest in your imagination.

A sphere (you know what it looks like), zillion legs, thousand eyes, drooling mouths, bulging eyes... you KNOW what those look like. Give me one example of something you've NEVER EVER seen before. Correction: Something htat is MADE of things you've never encountered.

 

The human mind can't accomplish that, because we're limited (As all life forms we know) to a certain dimentional comprehension. Like beetles can't comprehend the third dimention. When they're standing on the edge of a bump that was created by a large rock and "fall" into it, they dont see a bump, they see a surface just like any other. They would probably think they're being pulled by the rock's gravitational force.

 

By the way, I'm being a bit phylosophic here, not because I want to throw wild thoughts, but because I strongly believe that in our search for knowledge (specially about the infinite universe, which we can't even graps the meaning of infinite), we should RELY on factual events and objects to get to conclutions, but we should ALWAYS keep our minds open for more possibilities, as I've mentioned before.

 

 

~moo

[Pinch Paxton]

You missed my point. I didnt say we cant imagine other life forms, I said we cant imagine all the possibilities.

 

Maybe you missed my point, I meant that we can imagine all of the possibilities.

 

Pincho.

[mooeypoo]

Which is what I said too.

 

I just meant that aliens aren't necessarily PART of those possibilities

 

 

~moo

[Pinch Paxton]

Which is what I said too.

 

I just meant that aliens aren't necessarily PART of those possibilities

 

 

That's two contradictions in one post. We can imagine all alien possibilities. They can communicate by spitting water in each others lightpipes, it is still possible to guesstimate. Anything is. They don't have colour, they have brittleness, and the more brittle a part is, the more is stimulates you. Surely we can imagine every situation if we want to.

 

Pincho.

[mooeypoo]

Pinch, try to read my posts again.

 

We have a LIMITED imagination, which means we CANNOT imagine all possibilities.

We can imagine all sorts of possibilities that are made of things we already know, hence eyes, hands, mouths and such.

 

It's a nice imagination experiment. Try to give me an example of something you've never ever ever encountered before, and I'll show you that you can't imagine it without using htings you already know.

 

It's not a contradiction. I said - and I stick to it - that we can imagine all the possibilities we KNOW - but we can't imagine things we don't know. And in my opinion, aliens aren't necessarily exist in the possibilities we are capable of imagining.

 

~moo

[Pinch Paxton]

Yeah but that does sound like your opinion, and I can't see what it is based on. You are saying something like...try to imagine something that you can't imagine. Really, that has no logic. I don't think that anything exists that is not imaginable. Maybe you are remembering something that did not make sense to you like 4D images, and you want to use this as an example for a 4D alien. Well 4D should be 3D with time, someone wanted it to be a new kind of shape, but it is not that it is unimaginable, it's the fact that it is completely invented by man, and is impossible.

 

Pincho.

[mooeypoo]

It's based on the FACT that people can't imagine anything they haven't encountered before, and on the FACT that we keep finding new phenomenas we can't understand, and on the logic of how I see the universe.

 

If you read carefuly, you'll see I agree we should - in PRACTICAL terms - search for things we CAN comprehend, obviously, but in the PHYLOSOPHICAL *wawy-of-thinking* mode, we should open our minds.

 

 

And you still haven't given me anything that your imagination can think without seeing, you only explained WHY we cant imagine what we didnt see.

 

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

It sounds to me that the way you see the world is the way it exists on earth.

 

Personally, in my humble opinion, I find that to be awfully weird if that is the case.

 

it's been 500 years after mankind found out earth is not the center of the universe. Thinking everything out there is similar to us, is just something I find extremely arrogant of us.

 

~moo

[Pinch Paxton]

It's based on the FACT that people can't imagine anything they haven't encountered before, and on the FACT that we keep finding new phenomenas we can't understand, and on the logic of how I see the universe.

 

But these aren't facts though. Where did you get these facts from? I've never heard of any of them, and they still seem like opinions, and not facts. How can someone tell me what I can't imagine without reading me mind telepathically? How is it logical to have facts that are about my own thoughts, and to tell me that this is how my brain works, but I know that it isn't because I am the one using my brain in the first place.

 

And you still haven't given me anything that your imagination can think without seeing, you only explained WHY we cant imagine what we didnt see.

 

A smell.. A sound... A taste... Heat...Pain...disgust..love...hate..anger...

 

What do you mean without seeing?

 

Lots of senses don't need vision. We can even imagine how sharks see using electrical impulses, and that isn't part of our ability.

 

Pincho.