Kucinich: Oil companies and Cheney met secretly about Iraq war in 2001

[Phi for All]

consider this simple fact: If the administration were so devious that it would attempt to drift a certain falsehood into the public record and kill thousands in an attempt to affect world oil prices we would have found WMDs in large numbers in Iraq already.

How on earth is that a fact? I think you underestimate how difficult it would be to effectively fake the manufacture signatures of a nuclear device. Why supply evidence that can be studied at length when fear and misinformation work better and are more easily denied?

 

The administration found it much easier to sell the myth that some gases normally used for area denial were, in fact, some sort of James Bond, one drop drops you dead in your tracks, nerve toxin WMDs. Most people still think Sarin gas will do that to you.

[jryan]

How on earth is that a fact? I think you underestimate how difficult it would be to effectively fake the manufacture signatures of a nuclear device. Why supply evidence that can be studied at length when fear and misinformation work better and are more easily denied?

 

The administration found it much easier to sell the myth that some gases normally used for area denial were, in fact, some sort of James Bond, one drop drops you dead in your tracks, nerve toxin WMDs. Most people still think Sarin gas will do that to you.

 

Why would he need to do to do anything with regard to the nuclear side of the Iraqi WMD program? Iraq alreday had tons of declared uranium at the time of the invasion. And it was declared for the very same reasons that you indicate.

 

I would suggest you read the ISG final repport for the full picture of pre-war Iraq. Your assumptions are misplaced, and your attributed motivations are pointless and unfounded. In the ISG final report you will find all kinds of real information with which to build an informed opinion.

[Pangloss]

"Even me"? Hmmmm.. not sure how to take that.

 

I didn't mean it as a perjorative, it's just a reference to the fact that you're a supporter of the no-bid selection of Halliburton, defending the administration's position.

 

I'm percolating on the rest of your post, but I wanted to remind you all that I can't really pick out pieces of posts and move them to new threads, so keep that in mind if you stray to other subjects. It's cool with me, but if you want to really dig in you should start a new thread.

[iNow]

Iraq alreday had tons of declared uranium at the time of the invasion.

 

Source?

[Phi for All]

It may just be circumstantial evidence, but there is a whole lot of it.

And this is what uber secrecy does, it reduces the ability of the people to keep tabs on their government, and effectively elevates the importance of paying attention to circumstances. The Washington Post revealed some of the key people involved in the secret meetings but I'm hoping that, if there is anything worth hiding, Kucinich can figure out a way around the SCOTUS ruling regarding these so-called "normal 'interagency' review of major domestic policy" meetings.

 

And I agree that Kucinich needs to find more hard evidence because all the circumstances surrounding the Bush administration seem to get written off as conspiracy. And dammit Dennis, you're pandering to that by making insinuations without substance.

Why would he need to do to do anything with regard to the nuclear side of the Iraqi WMD program? Iraq alreday had tons of declared uranium at the time of the invasion. And it was declared for the very same reasons that you indicate.

I didn't say "he" needed to do anything. I was asking why you consider it a "simple fact" that the Bush administration could have faked "large numbers" of WMDs if their intent was to mislead the public.

 

I would suggest you read the ISG final repport for the full picture of pre-war Iraq. Your assumptions are misplaced, and your attributed motivations are pointless and unfounded. In the ISG final report you will find all kinds of real information with which to build an informed opinion.

The report is an excellent one, but it's a strawman for my argument that gases like Sarin hardly constitute WMDs as the administration claimed. I made no assumptions and attributed no motivations (no one had to do much more than say "nerve gas"), and you'll find only facts about Sarin from this CDC link so you won't have to rely on my misinformed opinion.

[jryan]

Source?

 

Source for the Urnaium storage at the Tuwaitha advanced weapons facility south of Baghdad:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/tuwaitha.htm

[Pangloss]

Yeah but that was the stuff that was cleared out after the first Gulf War and was being openly and actively monitored prior to the 2003 invasion. It can hardly be used to justify the second war.

 

Following the 1991 Gulf War, the International Atomic Energy Agency removed all known Iraqi stocks of highly enriched uranium and plutonium, in accordance with the provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 687. As of 2002 the only positively confirmed nuclear material left in Iraq is 1.8 tons of low-enriched uranium and several tons of natural and depleted uranium. The material is in a locked storage site at the Tuwaitha nuclear research facility near Baghdad. Under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, this stock of material is checked once a year by an IAEA team. The most recent check was in January 2002, and none of the material had been tampered with at that time.

[jryan]

And I agree that Kucinich needs to find more hard evidence because all the circumstances surrounding the Bush administration seem to get written off as conspiracy. And dammit Dennis, you're pandering to that by making insinuations without substance.I didn't say "he" needed to do anything. I was asking why you consider it a "simple fact" that the Bush administration could have faked "large numbers" of WMDs if their intent was to mislead the public.

 

Can you tell the difference between an standard artillery shell and one filled with Sarin? How about a barrel? You are assuming that the discovery would actually have to be real... but it wouldn't. An announcement and a photo op in front of empty crates would suffice if the intention was to lie about it. They wouldn't have to actually ship uranium (they actually already had uranium in country... see above link), or chemical weapon agents.

 

They could even just overplay the magnitude of WMDs that they DID find in Iraq, and give samples of those as proof.

 

But they didn't.

 

You are stuck in an anti-occam's razor mentality that you want to over complicate the follow through on a "lie" that you already think they managed successfully for over a year leading up to the war. By your estimation, all they would have had to do if they were lying in continue the lie after the invasion with all that dummied up evidence you think they were showing to the American people and the UN.

 

The point is they THOUGHT they would find WMDs in Iraq, so them sating there are WMDs in IRaq was not a lie.

 

The report is an excellent one, but it's a strawman for my argument that gases like Sarin hardly constitute WMDs as the administration claimed. I made no assumptions and attributed no motivations (no one had to do much more than say "nerve gas"), and you'll find only facts about Sarin from this CDC link so you won't have to rely on my misinformed opinion.

 

I don't even know what you are saying. Since when is Sarin not considered a WMD? That CDC article clearly states that Sarin is a weaponized nerve agent and is very toxic, and severe exposure is deadly... are you going on some other definition of what a WMD is that I am not aware of?

 

Yeah but that was the stuff that was cleared out after the first Gulf War and was being openly and actively monitored prior to the 2003 invasion. It can hardly be used to justify the second war.

 

I'm not saying that was a justification for a second war. There wasn't enough their to complete a refinement process anyway, I don't think. And Iraq couldn't assume that a U.N. pullout would leave the uranium.

 

That is why Iraq sent the group to Niger to begin with. Unless, of course, we believe it was for tourism from a third world country to a country in shambles from years of sanctions... or for concrete.

 

You can also find in the ISG report that Iraq had intended to fire up it's WMD programs as soon as the UN left. This leaves us with a perenialy sanctioned and inspected Iraq, or a much harder war later.

[bombus]

It means generating massive profits for the oil companies. Nothing to do with the people at all. Those corporations are more than willing to sell to the highest bidder, whether that bidder is the US, China, or Gilligan's Island.

 

Absolutely right! Not only that, but the 'defense' industries have made £billions out of Iraq. That's why they are happy to have a war with Iran - or anybody else for that matter. The poor soldiers pay with their lives to keep the bosses rich - as ever...

[iNow]

An interesting tidbit which came up on my google alerts:

 

 

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/hunt_oil_and_the_bush_admin_a_timeline_of_correspondence.php

Chairman Waxman of the House Oversight Committee claimed today that the Bush Administration knew about the Hunt Oil deal way before it happened-- something the administration has denied regularly.

 

According to Waxman, there were nearly a dozen contacts between various levels of the administration and Hunt Oil as the deal was taking place.

 

 

September 13, 2007

: A State Department official contacts Hunt Oil to describe another "good opportunity for Hunt" in Iraq, prompting a Hunt Oil official to write Ray Hunt: "This is really good for us. . .I find it a huge compliment that he is 'tipping' us off about this . . .This is a lucky break."

[bascule]

I just think unsupported conspiracy theories (like this one) probably belong in speculations.

 

Here's a wealth of documents supporting Kucinich's claims, acquired by Judicial Watch under the Freedom of Information Act:

 

http://www.judicialwatch.org/iraqi-oil-maps.shtml

 

CHENEY ENERGY TASK FORCE DOCUMENTS FEATURE MAP OF IRAQI OILFIELDS

 

Commerce & State Department Reports to Task Force Detail Oilfield & Gas Projects, Contracts & Exploration

 

Saudi Arabian & UAE Oil Facilities Profiled As Well

 

(Washington, DC) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, said today that documents turned over by the Commerce Department, under court order as a result of Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents, which are dated March 2001, are available on the Internet at: http://www.JudicialWatch.org.

 

The Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates (UAE) documents likewise feature a map of each country’s oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the projects, costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date.

 

Judicial Watch has been seeking these documents under FOIA since April 19, 2001. Judicial Watch was forced to file a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (Judicial Watch Inc. v. Department of Energy, et al., Civil Action No. 01-0981) when the government failed to comply with the provisions of the FOIA law. U.S. District Court Judge Paul J. Friedman ordered the government to produce the documents on March 5, 2002.

 

The documents were produced in response to Judicial Watch’s on-going efforts to ensure transparency and accountability in government on behalf of the American people. Judicial Watch aggressively pursues those goals by making FOIA requests and seeking access to public information concerning government operations. When the government fails to abide by these “sunshine laws” Judicial Watch files lawsuits in order to obtain the requested information and to hold responsible government officials accountable.

 

“These documents show the importance of the Energy Task Force and why its operations should be open to the public,” stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

[Pangloss]

Oh my god, you've got tons of evidence that the administration knew there was oil in the Middle East!!!!

 

Wow, I'm amazed Bush is still in office. Does Michael Moore know about this?!