Could we survive without the bacteria in our guts?

[mrsemmapeel]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and thought it was about time I posted a question, so here goes....

 

Is it possible to live a healthy life without the trillions of bacteria that live in our digestive systems, or are they vital for our survival? And could we get rid of them even if we wanted to?

 

Thanks:D

[ecoli]

nope, we surely wouldn't survive... not for long, anyway.

[CharonY]

Getting rid of them is somewhat possible (it is done during colon transplantation). Most of the time it does not work completely and residual bacteria are believed to be one of the major reasons why such operations are very risky. However, if you lived in a sterile environment and never get exposed to bacteria, then it is quite possible to live without them. Most likely you have to get rid of the rest of the bacteria on your body, too.

Interestingly sterile mice even tend to live longer than their counterparts. Of course they die quickly once exposed to a non-sterile environment.

[dichotomy]

If mitochondria are ever classified as bacteria, then we are screwed, right?

[ecoli]

Getting rid of them is somewhat possible (it is done during colon transplantation). Most of the time it does not work completely and residual bacteria are believed to be one of the major reasons why such operations are very risky. However, if you lived in a sterile environment and never get exposed to bacteria, then it is quite possible to live without them. Most likely you have to get rid of the rest of the bacteria on your body, too.

Interestingly sterile mice even tend to live longer than their counterparts. Of course they die quickly once exposed to a non-sterile environment.

what about vitamin k production, etc.

[mrsemmapeel]

Colon transplantation, ooh that doesn't sound nice, the bacteria can rest easy in my gut!

unless of course I need one in the future, then they'd better find another host!

[CharonY]

I assume that the diet is adjusted accordingly, of course. A number of amino acids, co-factors and so on are mostly of bacterial origin at some point as many eukaryotes lost the ability to synthesize them. AFAIK the human colon is relatively ineffective in sequestering nutrients from gut bacteria (as compared e.g. to cows) so normally you need another source like vegetables, anyway.

Of course if all bacteria on the planet were eliminated we all would die.

 

If mitochondria are ever classified as bacteria, then we are screwed, right?

Well in theory yes. But I would not know how to destroy them, ABs for the most part do not work on them.

[essence_of_cool]

i happen to know that if all bacteria were removed umans would not live more that 2 hours. This is from some documantary, stated that there are bacteris that nuetralize intense ions that would normally cause mass creation of ammonia, hence bad blood, hence death.

Also im pretty sure that if you had no bacteria in your gt, you wouldnt be able to eat any veges, right? And eating meat would be hypocritical seeing as meat has a lot of bacteria in it and eating it implies that you have bacteria in your gut again!

[CharonY]

In that case the documentary is clearly faulty. Especially because it has both been shown in humans and mice not to be the case.

[jimmydasaint]

I think humans would live for more than 2 hours without gut bacteria. It seems that gut bacteria can be destroyed by bacteriocidal (bacteria-killing, as opposed to bacteriostatic antibiotics which stop bacteria from reproducing) antibiotics use could allow internal body fungi (eg yeast) to proliferate in numbers at the advantage of dying bacteria. However, the bacteria 'bounce back' in large numbers from eating yoghurt and foods. It seems that daily intake of yoghurt may be beneficial.

 

However, I cannot find information which states if ALL gut bacteria are destroyed by antibiotics or not.

 

On a side note, it seems that cattle are fed antibiotcs regularly and we now have loads of antibacterial products in toothpastes, washing up powders etc...This may be worth a separate Thread but is society creating a possible ecological disaster by over-use of antibiotics which may lead to antibiotic resistance being widespread in bacteria?

[ecoli]

I think humans would live for more than 2 hours without gut bacteria. It seems that gut bacteria can be destroyed by bacteriocidal (bacteria-killing, as opposed to bacteriostatic antibiotics which stop bacteria from reproducing) antibiotics use could allow internal body fungi (eg yeast) to proliferate in numbers at the advantage of dying bacteria. However, the bacteria 'bounce back' in large numbers from eating yoghurt and foods. It seems that daily intake of yoghurt may be beneficial.

I don't think antibiotics would kill of the bacterial resevior in the appendix. So, I don't see how it would be possible to remove the bacteria from the colon in the first place.

[jimmydasaint]

I did not say all the gut bacteria. You are right, of course, the appendix is a storage facility for bacteria. this then raises another question. What about people with their appenidix removed due to appendicitis? Is there a higher incidence of certain diseases as a result?

[CharonY]

However, I cannot find information which states if ALL gut bacteria are destroyed by antibiotics or not.

 

It is virtually impossible to simply sterilize the gut just by intake of antibiotics. In the worst case you would just select for resistant strains. Also you cannot take in a high enough concentration to kill all bacteria and still survive (as ABs are also quite toxic to begin with).

In general, residual bacteria are of concern for intestine transplants, for instance. Stable sterile models are usually only established e.g. in mice. However, I recall a rather recent report in which a colon was sterilized and the de novo colonization by bacteria was monitored. I just cannot bloody recall the authors...

[jimmydasaint]

I assume that if a colon is sterilised then careful dietary control would allow recolonisation. However, I have learnt a few new facts here. Very interesting stuff. Have you read anything about the types of antibiotics used generally in toothpastes etc...Are we breeding new strins of antibiotic resistant bacteria or is it a dosage/inhibitor dependent effect?

[Psycho]

I assume that if a colon is sterilised then careful dietary control would allow recolonisation. However, I have learnt a few new facts here. Very interesting stuff. Have you read anything about the types of antibiotics used generally in toothpastes etc...Are we breeding new strins of antibiotic resistant bacteria or is it a dosage/inhibitor dependent effect?

We aren't breeding new strains of antibiotic bacteria they are all ready there, however it doesn't matter that they are there because that is why we have an immune system, antibiotic resistant bacteria are only a problem when our immune system is weakened and only occur in large numbers when antibiotics are prevalent and therefore it is of great advantage to be resistant to them, hence the problem in hospitals and the search for new antibiotics (which will only be a temporary fix) and other treatment methods.

[jimmydasaint]

We aren't breeding new strains of antibiotic bacteria they are all ready there, however it doesn't matter that they are there because that is why we have an immune system, antibiotic resistant bacteria are only a problem when our immune system is weakened and only occur in large numbers when antibiotics are prevalent and therefore it is of great advantage to be resistant to them, hence the problem in hospitals and the search for new antibiotics (which will only be a temporary fix) and other treatment methods.

 

You have to be careful of making statements with that degree of certitude. I must admit that I had been labouring under the misconception that a large number of bacteria were wiped out with orally administered bacteriocidal antibiotics with a broad spectrum. However, that misconception has been corrected from this thread.

 

Back to the point, is the general use of antibacterial agents in household items causing resistant strains to increase in number. The short answer is that I don't know. However, now that I have read e-coli's blog, it seems that the dosage is quite low and that the issue of resistance was considered prior to the use of antibacterials. Triclosan for example causes no resistance effects to occur.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

[Psycho]

You have to be careful of making statements with that degree of certitude. I must admit that I had been labouring under the misconception that a large number of bacteria were wiped out with orally administered bacteriocidal antibiotics with a broad spectrum. However, that misconception has been corrected from this thread.

What statement with what degree of certainty?

 

Back to the point, is the general use of antibacterial agents in household items causing resistant strains to increase in number. The short answer is that I don't know. However, now that I have read e-coli's blog, it seems that the dosage is quite low and that the issue of resistance was considered prior to the use of antibacterials. Triclosan for example causes no resistance effects to occur.

Yes they are, is it relevant, not really as we aren't susceptible too them and generally the products used are in higher concentration than the bacteria can tolerate anyway so inevitable they are killed at some point probably by the same product that caused them to have a breif advantage over another strain.

[iNow]

The History Channel is doing a special here in the US on Tuesday night, part 2 of a four part series on Evolution. This episode is entitled, "Guts." Might be worth the watch.

 

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=331904

[John Cuthber]

"i happen to know that if all bacteria were removed umans would not live more that 2 hours."

OK, for the last couple of hours before I was born I had no gut bacteria but was otherwise practically identical to the first couple afterwards; I lived. How come?

[CharonY]

Let us put it into the right context. The only reason why lack of colon bacteria is lethal is due to the fact that harmful bacteria can reside there easily, killing off the organism. This can be even simply a bacterium from another part of the body. However, it will never happen within two hours. Period.

A sterile organism in a sterile environment lives (with adjustments of the diet).

Oh, I forgot to add, you get inoculated with bacteria while being in the womb.