ionizing radiation in space

[Astronautical]

Does anyone know any current materials used in spacecraft that are meant to block or absorb this?

 

What materials DO absorb or block this?

Besides led.

I can think of water, right?

 

I ask because for my science fair I want to design a small-scale spacecraft model with some kind of material that will block/absorb radiation.

 

Also, what about creating a small-scale magnetosphere?

Is that possible?

Because wouldn't that block the ionizing raditaion from the spacecraft?

How can you make one?

No this is not trying to get homework answers that's why I didn't put it there.

I am just brainstorming for a project months ahead of time. =]

 

Any ideas about how to give radiation off to my model and how to test how well that radiation is being absorbed?

 

I was thinking a microwave but that is not ionized radiation is it?

[insane_alien]

everything provides some degree of protection against radiation. metals are usually particularly good.

 

a small scale magnetosphere is possible although power requirements make it prohibitively expensive and limited to large craft(to accomodate the equipment) with a nuclear powersource (for power).

 

this would potentially render many experiments undoable though.

 

big electromagnets are needed to generate it.

 

i don't think you should be using proper ionizing radiation at a science fair.

 

you could however use cloudy jelly and a lightbulb to show how that it takes a certain amount to half the radiation going through and that you can never block it all completely.

[Astronautical]

everything provides some degree of protection against radiation. metals are usually particularly good.

 

a small scale magnetosphere is possible although power requirements make it prohibitively expensive and limited to large craft(to accomodate the equipment) with a nuclear powersource (for power).

 

this would potentially render many experiments undoable though.

 

big electromagnets are needed to generate it.

 

i don't think you should be using proper ionizing radiation at a science fair.

 

you could however use cloudy jelly and a lightbulb to show how that it takes a certain amount to half the radiation going through and that you can never block it all completely.

 

So my idea isn't feasible huh?

And thanks for that idea too.

I am just trying to think of things that inhibit space travel and then trying to develop a solution with a scaled model.

But instead of using an acutal magnetospere or using actual ionized radiation are there supplements I could use to get the same point across that a magnetosphere would block ionized radiation.

Similar to the lightblb and jelly.

[insane_alien]

re-entry is always a good one. lets you mess around with a blowtorch.

 

make a little apollo shaped model and make some bases for it made out of different materials that show the different methods of dealing with the incredible heat.

 

plywood is good for demonstrating ablation which was used on the apollo(not plywood, ablation).

 

fire brick could be used for thermal soak protection(used on the shuttle).

[Astronautical]

But there is no way to do anything with radiation or a magnetosphere to ANY degree.

 

I have been researching it for hours now and I had my heart set on that. =/

 

I mean if it is impossible then I will use one of those other ides and I thank you for those.

[ydoaPs]

Plenty of every-day items are radioactive. For example, some smoke detectors, bananas, and you are all radioactive. Not to mention the radon in the air.

[Klaynos]

The problem with using radiation is, it's dangerous, difficult to see, you can't see the particles being deflected around the magnetosphere, and if you use the largest type, alpha particles, they lose their eneryg in a few mm of air...

[Astronautical]

difficult to see, you can't see the particles being deflected around the magnetosphere

 

I am trying to find some kind of a device (if there is one) that absorbs radiation and shows how much it absorbed.

 

That way I can expose it to radiation without the magnetosphere and then with and compare the amount of radiation that the device was able to absorb.

 

Also, considering I cannot make an actual magnetosphere with my given resources.

 

I can still scale it and make a small magnetic field around.

[NeonBlack]

Maybe you could get an electron gun with a phosphor screen. Although electrons at these energies are not ionizing, it would be much safer than using radioactive sources or trying to take apart a microwave. (Not to mention a magnetic field won't do anything to microwave, uv or gamma radiation). Also this has the benefit of being able to see the particles.

 

Close to the earth, the magnetosphere approximates a dipole, so a small bar magnet should be fine.

[Astronautical]

Maybe you could get an electron gun with a phosphor screen. Although electrons at these energies are not ionizing, it would be much safer than using radioactive sources or trying to take apart a microwave. (Not to mention a magnetic field won't do anything to microwave, uv or gamma radiation). Also this has the benefit of being able to see the particles.

 

Close to the earth, the magnetosphere approximates a dipole, so a small bar magnet should be fine.

 

What is a phosphor screen?

 

Also, would the magnetic field block/repel the electrons?

I guess it would because of the negative charge.....sorry that was a dumb question =]

 

How can I see the particles?

Sorry for the dumb questions?

 

I found on the internet this

http://cgi.ebay.com/CD-V-777-2-RADIATION-DETECTION-KIT-CDV-715-1A-Retrofit_W0QQitemZ200240153092QQihZ010QQcategoryZ53154QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

I was thinking I could place that in the center of the magnetic field and apply radiation to prove that it blocked it when the device shows that no radiation has been detected.

 

Will the work the same with an electron gun?

 

Thanks ahead.

 

edit: Also, where could I get an electron gun.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Astronautical
another question

[SkepticLance]

Ionising radiation in space is a real problem. Long term exposure leads to much increased cancer risk. It has been suggested that a round trip to Mars, taking 3 years, will increase your chances of dying young from cancer to 30%. A shield would be very necessary for long term exposure.

 

As stated, water is good, but a lot is needed. Increasing the hydrogen level in your shield increases the protection. Some polymers and hydrocarbons are potentially good. However, the most feasible method, without unacceptable weight increase, is a magnetic shield. NASA researchers are working on that. Don't hold your breath!

[NeonBlack]

short answer: A phosphor is basically something that lights up when an electron hits it. You can use it as an electron detector.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

 

A television repair shop should be able to hook you up with an electron gun, although these are becoming rarer as more people just throw away their old/broken tv's.

[Astronautical]

short answer: A phosphor is basically something that lights up when an electron hits it. You can use it as an electron detector.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

 

A television repair shop should be able to hook you up with an electron gun, although these are becoming rarer as more people just throw away their old/broken tv's.

 

Where can I get a phosphor screen becaus eif I just type it on ebay it is expensive?

 

Am I looking at the wrong thing or are they just pricey?

 

Thanks for all this help

 

Ionising radiation in space is a real problem. Long term exposure leads to much increased cancer risk. It has been suggested that a round trip to Mars, taking 3 years, will increase your chances of dying young from cancer to 30%. A shield would be very necessary for long term exposure.

 

As stated, water is good, but a lot is needed. Increasing the hydrogen level in your shield increases the protection. Some polymers and hydrocarbons are potentially good. However, the most feasible method, without unacceptable weight increase, is a magnetic shield. NASA researchers are working on that. Don't hold your breath!

 

 

That magnetic field is what I am trying to replicate on a smaller scale to see if it actually works.

 

Are both cosmic radiation and solar radiation considered ionized radiation?

[SkepticLance]

To Astronautical

 

Cosmic radiation is generally high energy ionised particles. Quite a range of particles.

 

Solar radiation simply means any radiation from the sun, and includes particulate and electromagnetic radiation. EM is the main form, and covers most of the EM spectrum. EM, of course, is not ionised particles.

[Klaynos]

CRT televisions and monitors use electron guns, magnets and phosphor screens to create the image.

[John Cuthber]

"Maybe you could get an electron gun with a phosphor screen. Although electrons at these energies are not ionizing,"

Oh yes they are. If it's got enough energy to produce visible light it can ionise at least some things. The electrons in CRTs are rypically at 10KV; ionisation potentials are typically a few volts.

[Astronautical]

"Maybe you could get an electron gun with a phosphor screen. Although electrons at these energies are not ionizing,"

Oh yes they are. If it's got enough energy to produce visible light it can ionise at least some things. The electrons in CRTs are rypically at 10KV; ionisation potentials are typically a few volts.

 

So are you saying that the electron gun can be considered very similar to very low levels of ionizing radiation?

 

I just do not want my results to be considered invalid by judges because I am trying to simulate something similar to cosmic radiation.

[Arch2008]

Astronautical, by ionizing radiation in space, did you perhaps means cosmic rays, which aren't rays at all. These particles can be stopped by the magnetosphere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_rays

It's a common mistake. This is what the astronauts saw as flashes in their eyes while they slept. The manned mission to Mars hopes to shield the crew by storing their water supply around the crew compartment. High speed ions of hydrogen and helium aren't the sort of stuff for science fairs though.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Arch2008

[NeonBlack]

Yes, John is absolutely correct. I'm sorry I don't know what I was thinking when I said that.

Electrons are a major constituent of the solar wind, so yes, I would say that an electron gun could be used to simulate part of the radiation astronauts would experience.

[Astronautical]

Astronautical, by ionizing radiation in space, did you perhaps means cosmic rays, which aren't rays at all. These particles can be stopped by the magnetosphere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_rays

It's a common mistake. This is what the astronauts saw as flashes in their eyes while they slept. The manned mission to Mars hopes to shield the crew by storing their water supply around the crew compartment. High speed ions aren't the sort of stuff for science fairs though.

 

 

Cosmic rays are ionizing radiation, aren't they?

 

These can hurt the crew on these trips so my project will not use the same level as the actual thing but I want to test the idea on a small scale just to actually test it out.

 

My option as of how I am going to apply the particles is either going to be using an electron gun or getting low-level ionizing radiation form my local university and they can help me use it safely.

 

^

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That is what my current issue is.

Deciding between those options.

 

Yes, John is absolutely correct. I'm sorry I don't know what I was thinking when I said that.

Electrons are a major constituent of the solar wind, so yes, I would say that an electron gun could be used to simulate part of the radiation astronauts would experience.

 

Thanks.

Alright awesome that takes care of the solar wind.

 

But now the cosmic radiation which is 90% protons .

How can I simulate that?

 

Again thanks for all this amazing help from everyone!

 

I am so pumped for this experiment!

Edited August 6, 2008 by Astronautical
multiple post merged

[Klaynos]

Cosmic rays are ionizing radiation, aren't they?

 

They do a bit more than ionise.... They're REALLY energetic, most shilding on spacecraft (and the magnetosphere) is to stop/reduce effects from teh solar wind.

 

These can hurt the crew on these trips so my project will not use the same level as the actual thing but I want to test the idea on a small scale just to actually test it out.

 

My option as of how I am going to apply the particles is either going to be using an electron gun or getting low-level ionizing radiation form my local university and they can help me use it safely.

 

Beta negative radiation, which is the easiest to deal with in a lab and actually be usable (alphas get absorbed but very little air. Is the most dangerous in those situations as it can penetrate the skin but will get absorbed before it gets out the other side. Is just electrons. So an electron gun is firing beta negative radiation, but in a more controlled manner. Cosmic rays covers a very large range of particles, all of which are very high energy and only some of them are electrons.

 

^

^

^

^

^

That is what my current issue is.

Deciding between those options.

 

 

 

Thanks.

Alright awesome that takes care of the solar wind.

 

But now the cosmic radiation which is 90% protons .

How can I simulate that?

 

They're just charged particles, so they respond similarly to electrons, but electrons are significantly lighter but with the same charge, so a magnetic field of the same strength will have less of an effect on them. The maths for this isn't that difficult it's taught to 17 year olds in the UK, and I'm sure we'd happily help you with it.

 

Again thanks for all this amazing help from everyone!

 

I am so pumped for this experiment!

 

Good good

[Astronautical]

They do a bit more than ionise.... They're REALLY energetic,

 

What makes "ionizing radiation" specifically such a problem?

 

most shilding on spacecraft (and the magnetosphere) is to stop/reduce effects from teh solar wind.

 

Is this becuase solar wind is the only problem or because they cannot figure out how to stop cosmic radiation?

 

 

 

 

 

Beta negative radiation, which is the easiest to deal with in a lab and actually be usable (alphas get absorbed but very little air. Is the most dangerous in those situations as it can penetrate the skin but will get absorbed before it gets out the other side. Is just electrons. So an electron gun is firing beta negative radiation, but in a more controlled manner. Cosmic rays covers a very large range of particles, all of which are very high energy and only some of them are electrons.

 

So the electron gun is similar to the solar wind. But how can it simulate cosmic rays which are 90% protons? Using the math like you stated below? Do I need to use math to convert the electron/protons?

 

They're just charged particles, so they respond similarly to electrons, but electrons are significantly lighter but with the same charge, so a magnetic field of the same strength will have less of an effect on them. The maths for this isn't that difficult it's taught to 17 year olds in the UK, and I'm sure we'd happily help you with it.

 

But I thought you said the magnetosphere would not stop cosmic radiation, only solar wind?

 

Math for what, calculating the difference between the electrons and protons?

edit: Oh I think I understand this part now!

Because both cosmic rays and solar wind are about 90% protons.

I need math to convert the weight from electrons, from the electron gun, to the weight of protons.

I also need math to figure out the difference between the strength of my magnetic field and how much is actually needed to protect astronauts.

Wow, that sounds difficult. But I am ready to figure it out. =D

 

 

Just some other questions.....

 

So an overall conclusion is that a strong enough magnetic field should protect from both cosmic rays and solar wind. Considering that they both are made of charged particles.

 

For actually testing whether or not the radiation actually gets through the magnetic shield. I was thinking of placing something similar to this http://cgi.ebay.com/CD-V-777-2-RADIATION-DETECTION-KIT-CDV-715-1A-Retrofit_W0QQitemZ200240153092QQihZ010QQcategoryZ53154QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem inside the center of the shield.

Would using a radiation detector or a phosphor screen be more effective for this task?

 

A MAIN DETAIL:

 

I do not just want to copy and test an idea that N.A.S.A. is working on a larger scale.

 

So can anyone think of any important flaws that I can improve on for this idea?

Like any other harm that this will not block but is related?

 

I just want to improve this basic concept of NASA's and try to put a different spin on it.

 

 

Again thanks for all help and answers (sorry if I am being a pest with all these questions)

Edited August 7, 2008 by Astronautical

[SkepticLance]

The thing is that cosmic rays are particles travelling with tremendous energy. Just as it takes more armour to stop a cannonball than it does to stop a tennis ball, so it takes more shielding to stop cosmic rays compared to solar wind.

 

I think you will find that, to simulate cosmic rays in the lab, you will need a powerful particle accelerator. You can buy one of these at your local lab supplies store. Cost about $ 10 billion.

[Astronautical]

The thing is that cosmic rays are particles travelling with tremendous energy. Just as it takes more armour to stop a cannonball than it does to stop a tennis ball, so it takes more shielding to stop cosmic rays compared to solar wind.

 

I think you will find that, to simulate cosmic rays in the lab, you will need a powerful particle accelerator. You can buy one of these at your local lab supplies store. Cost about $ 10 billion.

 

I do not want to simulate it with the same amount f energy.

 

Just with the same particles.

 

I can use some sort of math to convert the actual amount of energy I used to the actual amount of energy.

[Klaynos]

They do a bit more than ionise.... They're REALLY energetic,

 

What makes "ionizing radiation" specifically such a problem?

 

It can ionise atoms in your DNA and cause cancer

 

Cosmic rays are powerful enough to cause cascades of new particles to be created...

 

most shilding on spacecraft (and the magnetosphere) is to stop/reduce effects from teh solar wind.

 

Is this becuase solar wind is the only problem or because they cannot figure out how to stop cosmic radiation?

 

It's because cosmic rays are so much more powerful, the solar wind is mostly electrons and protons with energies around 10³eV, whereas cosmic rays are up to around 10²⁰, a BIG difference.

 

Beta negative radiation, which is the easiest to deal with in a lab and actually be usable (alphas get absorbed but very little air. Is the most dangerous in those situations as it can penetrate the skin but will get absorbed before it gets out the other side. Is just electrons. So an electron gun is firing beta negative radiation, but in a more controlled manner. Cosmic rays covers a very large range of particles, all of which are very high energy and only some of them are electrons.

 

So the electron gun is similar to the solar wind. But how can it simulate cosmic rays which are 90% protons? Using the math like you stated below? Do I need to use math to convert the electron/protons?

 

The way I'd do it, is to show experimentally that magnetic fields interact with moving charged particles in a ceratin way, which matches the equations (Lorentz Force), you can then use the equation to work out the size of the filed that would be required to deflect a particle of energy of a cosmic ray, or solar wind.

 

You can then use the B = equation given here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet#Force_on_ferromagnetic_materials

 

You can work out how big the electromagnet you'd need to generate a field that large...

 

They're just charged particles, so they respond similarly to electrons, but electrons are significantly lighter but with the same charge, so a magnetic field of the same strength will have less of an effect on them. The maths for this isn't that difficult it's taught to 17 year olds in the UK, and I'm sure we'd happily help you with it.

 

But I thought you said the magnetosphere would not stop cosmic radiation, only solar wind?

 

The magnetosphere isn't powerful enough to deflect cosmic rays.

 

Math for what, calculating the difference between the electrons and protons?

edit: Oh I think I understand this part now!

Because both cosmic rays and solar wind are about 90% protons.

I need math to convert the weight from electrons, from the electron gun, to the weight of protons.

I also need math to figure out the difference between the strength of my magnetic field and how much is actually needed to protect astronauts.

Wow, that sounds difficult. But I am ready to figure it out. =D

 

Something like that year I've give most of the relavent equations on wp pages above

 

Just some other questions.....

 

So an overall conclusion is that a strong enough magnetic field should protect from both cosmic rays and solar wind. Considering that they both are made of charged particles.

 

Yep

 

For actually testing whether or not the radiation actually gets through the magnetic shield. I was thinking of placing something similar to this http://cgi.ebay.com/CD-V-777-2-RADIATION-DETECTION-KIT-CDV-715-1A-Retrofit_W0QQitemZ200240153092QQihZ010QQcategoryZ53154QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem inside the center of the shield.

Would using a radiation detector or a phosphor screen be more effective for this task?

 

It depends what you want to measure, that'll be easier to measure quantities, but a phosphor screen would be better at showing you where the electrons actually are...

 

A MAIN DETAIL:

 

I do not just want to copy and test an idea that N.A.S.A. is working on a larger scale.

 

So can anyone think of any important flaws that I can improve on for this idea?

Like any other harm that this will not block but is related?

 

I just want to improve this basic concept of NASA's and try to put a different spin on it.

 

 

Again thanks for all help and answers (sorry if I am being a pest with all these questions)

 

You're not being a pest, it's good to see someone interesting in working something out and applying ideas

Edited August 7, 2008 by swansont
fix superscript tag