Spare the rod and get ADD's

[pioneer]

This is just a logical observation but it seem to make sense. Small children with attention disorders may not learn attention control from time outs. The duration of the punishment exceeds their attention span. But a quick crack to the butt, has a fractional second duration, so this should be within their attention range. Has anyone ever plotted changes in the social policy away from spanking, and the increase in ADD's, to see if this correlates?

 

When I was younger, my brother and I were a year apart. He was much more hyper and I was more contained. Time outs work well with me. I would use that time to sulk or worry. But with him, almost immediately he would see it as having got away with something. His mind was already scheming. He forgot why he was there and was off in another direction. The feather slap on the wrist, to him, was worth another try in the future.

 

If my dad was there, and he caught us, he would use the 1 sec time out. After that it was over. My brother had more respect because cause and affect was within his attention span. But the slap for me was sort of an overdose, since the time out would work fine. The hit on the butt is not one size fits all, but it appears to be more affective for children who don't have a long attention span. Later in life, my brother never got upset about being spanked. There was no trauma, because as far as he is concerned, he was an active kid getting into all kinds of stuff and deserved what he got. If anything, it helped to slow him down so he could focus better.

 

Maybe there should be a study to see if the epidemic of future legal drug dependency can be avoided with an old fashion natural green psychology trick. It may require a doctor's prescription so this treatment only goes to the children who can benefit. It is not for kids with more self control. The time out appears effective enough.

[dichotomy]

The problem with physical punishment of the young is that the young think that this is the way to solve their own problems in life.

As for soft forms of punishment (time-out) having a co-relation to the rise in ADD? I think you might want to firstly look at the rise in the eagerness of clinicians to diagnose what constitutes ADD firstly. The hot headed kids of yesterday would probably be classified as ADD today.

 

 

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-24076787_ITM

 

"Predictors of aggression across three generations among sons of alcoholics: relationships involving grandparental and parental alcoholism, child aggression, marital aggression and parenting practices"

[iNow]

You know, an easier way to approach this problem would be to do an experiment with a large population sample. That way, nobody is relying on false premises and tortured logic to make conclusions.

 

Oh, also... You can't really teach a kid "out of" their attention deficit disorder.

 

 

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v3/n8/abs/nrn896.html

 

We propose that three such endophenotypes — a specific abnormality in reward-related circuitry that leads to shortened delay gradients, deficits in temporal processing that result in high intrasubject intertrial variability, and deficits in working memory — are most amenable to integrative collaborative approaches that aim to uncover the causes of ADHD.

[John Cuthber]

To say this "Small children with attention disorders " implies that you have already lost the battle.

If they have that problem then it must have been in their makeup before. In that case to punish them is unfair as they can't help something they are born with.

[dichotomy]

If they have that problem then it must have been in their makeup before.

 

 

That's not necessarily the case, nurture can be the root causes of loads of behavioural problems. Including in the very young. That classic experiment with little Albert is a case in point.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Albert_experiment

 

 

 

If our environment switches behavioral genes on/off, and studies suggest this is the case, then how do we know if our genes are simply pre-set from conception, or, if environmental cue/s switch gene/s on and off resulting in something like ADD?

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070910173810.htm

 

“Scientists at Johns Hopkins have developed a mouse model for schizophrenia in which a mutated gene linked to schizophrenia can be turned on or off at will.”

Edited August 12, 2008 by dichotomy

[pioneer]

Say we assume it is genetics. What this implies is a wide spread change in genetics for a significant fraction of the population in a relatively short period of time. It could be selective advantage based on the social environment created by society over the past generation or so. It would imply genetics able to change quickly to the environment.

 

Maybe these are normal genes that have always been there. But the social problem was less prevalent a generation ago. Humans have free will and are not fully under the control of behavioral genetics. Maybe the parent environment is not set up for the willpower. That, in turn, is a function of bad parenting advice from culture.

 

Spanking on the butt does little physical damage compared to the possible liver damage medication might create. As far as emotional damage, they don't have the attention span to linger about it. When it reaches the point where it starts to linger, they are cured.

[John Cuthber]

"That's not necessarily the case, nurture can be the root causes of loads of behavioural problems. Including in the very young. That classic experiment with little Albert is a case in point"

True, but to some extent it doesn't matter. It's too late by the time you can tell if a child is unusually defficient in attention.

[dichotomy]

It's too late by the time you can tell if a child is unusually defficient in attention.

 

Too late? for what? Behavioural modification?

I agree that there are lots of examples of semi-retarded individuals that have little to no hope of behavioural modification, but those correctly (and sadly incorrectly) diagnosed with ADD have a good chance of behavioural modification when the environmental conditions are right for change to take place.

 

Spanking on the butt does little physical damage compared to the possible liver damage medication might create. As far as emotional damage, they don't have the attention span to linger about it. When it reaches the point where it starts to linger, they are cured.

 

With that success rate, you should start a clinic.

Edited August 13, 2008 by dichotomy
multiple post merged

[iNow]

Pioneer - You do recognize that this is a science forum and that you can't just make stuff up and expect to be taken seriously, right?

 

Where is your empirical evidence that spanking cures ADD? I also remind you that the plural of "anecdotes" is not "evidence."

[John Cuthber]

Pioneer, as far as I can see you are proposing to punish (some) children for something for which they are not responsible. To me that's just plain wrong and it doesn't matter if their condition is due to nurture or nature.

Once you have a group that can be identified as "in need of a good hiding" then either you have brought them up badly, thereby training them that way; or they are born that way.

Smacking them for your failings or their genetic bad luck seems no better than just hitting unruly children because they make you angry- at least you can blame instinct for that.

[pioneer]

Where is your empirical evidence that spanking cures ADD?

 

This ADD phenomena has grown over the past decade. I asked myself what has changed. The other thing was to look at the nature of the problem, which is lack of attention span. One thing they both had in common was the change of policy away from spanking. That is why I suggested someone, less biased, to correlate the change in social policy as a function of ADD cases. Intuitively it adds up about right. We are not allowed structure the little animals in a way that is within the parameters of their attention span. The solution is medication. This is not painful, but this short of short term thinking since it may lead to unexpected long term problems. The butt is tough and heals. The liver may not be designed that way.

 

Smacking them for your failings or their genetic bad luck seems no better than just hitting unruly children because they make you angry- at least you can blame instinct for that.

 

Here is how I look at it. Let us look at medical treatment. Some people don't like to go to the doctors because pain is often part of the cure. If anyone had surgery, the after affect is not pleasure but pain and discomfort. I can be healthy and get a physical, but stilled get pained by needles. Why should any treatment involve pain? The answer is, you need to look at the big picture. That short term pain, if it cures you, is worth the pain. It is nothing personal, it is based on longer term vision. With ADD, two minutes after the spanking they forgot. When they remember they are cured. When some people go to the doctor to get a flu shoot, the vision of needle's pain may scare them away and make them second guess the correct action. But after it is over, and you escape the flu, it was worth it.

 

I am not suggesting whips with nails, just enough to awaken will power with a sense of cause and affect. How many parents enjoy it when their children cry due to needles. Do we leave them home and forget about that to protect them? You look long term. Culture makes this law to protect the children from the irrational fear of the parents.

 

One study that might useful is to compare subcultures, like fundamental religious people, who still use this old fashion technique, to that of the general population and compare cases of ADD. If it is independent there is no cause and affect. That would imply a rapid global genetic change. If there is a connection, science made a blunder, that can be corrected.

Edited August 14, 2008 by pioneer

[D H]

Say we assume it is genetics. What this implies is a wide spread change in genetics for a significant fraction of the population in a relatively short period of time.

No, it does not. You are making the same erroneous inferences regarding evolution that you made in this thread. The ADD/ADHD problem has been with us all the time. What has changed is society, not us.

 

We haven't changed at all biologically. There is no new ADD/ADHD gene that suddenly popped up in the human genome thirty years or so ago. Society on the other hand has changed immensely over the last thirty years. What was viewed as normal childhood behavior up until the onset of the information age is now viewed as abnormal. We have become much less physically active (a big factor in our obesity problem). We are constantly subjected to information overload. We expect our children to sit still and pay attention for hours on end in classes and at the same time inundate their senses in a way that encourages short attention spans. Many schools have cut out the one physical outlet that lets kids release their pent up energy, recess. This lack of physical outlets, increased demand for sedentary behavior, and information overload simply does not sit well with some kids. In some it causes a real biochemical response that is exactly counter to what society demands.

 

I am not saying that ADD/ADHD is not real. While some kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD are just normal kids acting like normal kids, there are a number of kids who truly are afflicted with this disease. Even these kids who truly do have ADD/ADHD would have had an easier go at life forty or more years ago because society back then did not aggravate the condition and provided meaningful outlets that mitigated the problems associated with the condition.

[seven8s]

pioneer

This ADD phenomena has grown over the past decade. I asked myself what has changed.

 

 

 

What has changed? Indeed an interesting question. Why are so many children diagnosed as ADD then ever before? Legal loophole. They are not being given a ‘full learning disabilities test’, which encompasses a three part evaluation as to why the child is not preforming to expectations. That evaluation includes the following:

 

a) social history

b) academic evaluation

c) verbal/ performance IQ discrepancy test, often know as a WISK test ( if I remember correctly).

 

Neurological testing such as EEG are also often preformed depending upon the results of the other ‘three’, in a comprehensive test to determine learning disabilities, and it’s CAUSE.

 

When a parent or teacher is concerned that a child may be ‘learning disabled’ it is more convenient to trash the child in the waste basket of ADD/ADHD, then preform a true learning disabilities test.

 

children who are diagnosed as ADD do not have to be given a full and comprehensive learning disabilities test BECAUSE they have been diagnosed as ADD or ADHD, unless the parent knows to request it. The teacher knows but will not, it is up to the parent to protect, know their child. It is cheaper and more convenient for the school (and tax payers) to not care.

Edited August 14, 2008 by seven8s
seven8s:correction ADHD vs ADHA, my mistake

[dichotomy]

This ADD phenomena has grown over the past decade. I asked myself what has changed.

 

Perhaps -

1. Rampant incorrect diagnoses.

2. Pressures to continually grow medication sales figures.

3. It's a fashionable diagnosis for the media

 

Smacking kids teaches kids to smack others. I suspect you'd be surprised if you were a fly on the wall to see just how many parents of "ADD" kids disproportionately hit, shake, and scream at their kids early in life. If you grow up in a family of cannibals, then you are likely to become one.

[iNow]

It's most likely just a matter of awareness. As with any issue in the medical field, diagnoses increase as people become more familiar with the phenomenon.

 

Also, DH is spot on above. Pioneer BADLY misunderstands the process of natural selection.

[seven8s]

Dichotomy

I suspect you'd be surprised if you were a fly on the wall to see just how many parents of "ADD" kids disproportionately hit, shake, and scream at their kids early in life. If you grow up in a family of cannibals, then you are likely to become one.

 

Myth. Parents of children with autism have been stigmatized for many generations as being the cause of their child’s autism. Today, through the advancements of science, including social sciences, we know better. ADD in fact is closely related to autism. Autism has a genetic link, if I remember correctly.

 

The latest fad does appear to blame the parent for the child’s inability to focus/concentrate, stigmatizing a whole new generation. Why not help families, why hurt them?

 

ADD/ADHD have diagnostic symptoms that find themselves spread across the board of other learning disabilities, no different then a sever iron deficiency in the elderly is often mis-diagnosed as Alzheimer, because it presents itself with similar symptoms. Iron deficiencies are not uncommon in the elderly because they take aspirin. Restless leg syndrom is another potential syndrom of iron deficiency. Most people, including some doctors don’t know that. Medications in such cases won’t help, iron supplementation on the other hand will. Which would you like a doctor to give in such cases?

 

Many children have neurological disorders that need specific attention. Those disorders are often from injuries, are injuries, either during birth, such as oxygen deprivation, and or ordinary childhood head injuries from falls, bumps, etc. Little boys, ‘boys being boys’ are most vulnerable to head injuries. Little boys are diagnosed in a significantly higher proportion with ADD/ADHD then little girls.

 

No one knows why a child is not preforming to expectations until proper testing is administered. Would we suture a wound with anti-biotics?

 

iNow

It's most likely just a matter of awareness. As with any issue in the medical field, diagnoses increase as people become more familiar with the phenomenon.

 

Neither ADD/ADHD or any other learning disability is a mere phenomenon. It is a real, physical disorder, no different then a broken leg, cancer, strep throat, yada, yada. Left unaddressed it significantly impacts an individuals life as well as society at large, in one way or another.

 

seven8s

It is cheaper and more convenient for the school (and tax payers) to not care.

 

 

And I would make this correction; it is not that people don’t care, but that it is an overwhelming problem. Spanking children and blaming parents increases the angst felt by both, increases the symptoms. Children don’t get up in the morning and say, gee I think I will fail today, and parents don’t get up and say, gee I think I’ll slap the crap out of my child today.

 

However having said that, it is far to easy for school systems to label children as ADD/ADHD who are not, and they do so willingly and knowingly, for various reasons.

 

This is a science forum, correct?

 

Pioneer

If anything, it helped to slow him down so he could focus better.

 

No offence, but that is BS. This isn't even equivilent to comparing apples to oranges, more like apples and onions, or strawberries and greenbeans...........

[dichotomy]

Autism has a genetic link, if I remember correctly.

 

I'm sure that's the case. But have nurture links been found too? If not I'm sure theyll be found soon.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080422150659.htm

 

"The most important implication of this study is that people with the same genetic makeup can be in different environments and have different expression profiles," Idaghdour says. "The same gene can be expressed in the city but not in a rural place because of the environment. So you must look at the environment when studying associations between genes and disease."

 

 

 

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717211651.htm

 

The latest fad does appear to blame the parent for the child’s inability to focus/concentrate, stigmatizing a whole new generation. Why not help families, why hurt them?

 

Sometimes the truth hurts. Nothing ever happens without some pressure. The unknown quantity is just how much pressure should be applied to abusive parents in order to force a change. And I’m not speculating that all ADD cases are from parental abuse, just most. And genes, at the right age, can be activated by environmental pressures. There is that experiment (anyone got the link?) where kittens blind folded on one eye from birth, for a period of time, never recover their vision in the blind folded eye, suggesting a lack of the right environmental input has cased this problem. Genes didn’t get the right input to function correctly.

 

Little boys are diagnosed in a significantly higher proportion with ADD/ADHD then little girls.

 

That’s interesting if true, because boys are the ones that are thumped around more often than girls, and primarily by their fathers. ADD like symptoms are possibly an evolutionary relic that was vital for survival at one point in time and still is vital in some cultures.

 

No one knows why a child is not preforming to expectations until proper testing is administered. Would we suture a wound with anti-biotics?

 

At least with some form of measurable testing, ADD kids have a chance at being diagnosed correctly and given effective behavioural, diet, exercise and medicinal therapy. And still, their parents could use a decent dose of the “proper” therapy themselves.

Edited August 15, 2008 by dichotomy

[iNow]

Neither ADD/ADHD or any other learning disability is a mere phenomenon. It is a real, physical disorder, no different then a broken leg, cancer, strep throat, yada, yada.

I quite agree, and probably should have chosen a better word.

[seven8s]

I will apologize in advance for the length of this post. I hope none of you have ADD/ADHD, because if you do, I probable lost you around the first paragraph. Please come back and continue to read (wink)

 

seven8s

Autism has a genetic link, if I remember correctly.

 

dichotomy

I'm sure that's the case. But have nurture links been found too? If not I'm sure theyll be found soon.

 

Do parents exist that lack appropriate skills to achieve a more desired outcome that is beneficial to their children, the parents, and society at large? Of course they do. So do societies. We tend to parent the way we were parented, because we don’t know any other way. We can’t know what we don’t know until someone/thing comes along that finds/knows/shows a better way/skill.

 

If parents/societies don’t know how to parent normal children, because they lack skills, i.e. experience through observation/participation and/or science how in the world are they supposed to know how to parent children with disabilities?

 

 

 

 

seven8s

The latest fad does appear to blame the parent for the child’s inability to focus/concentrate, stigmatizing a whole new generation. Why not help families, why hurt them?

 

dichotomy

Sometimes the truth hurts. Nothing ever happens without some pressure.

 

Really? What kind of pressure?

 

Rather then get off onto a wild philosophical/religious tangent on what is or isn’t the cause of ADD/ADHD, and/or how to parent children, perhaps it would be better to discuss how the disorder is diagnosed, and how this diagnosis may in fact mask a more serious disorder, such as a brain injury. Otherwise we will be suturing wounds with bacteria, and not the good kind.

dichotomy

The unknown quantity is just how much pressure should be applied to abusive parents in order to force a change.

 

 

You jest, correct? Perhaps we can have an enlightening conversation, without resorting to boxing gloves, and or bringing our own baggage to the table.

 

And I’m not speculating that all ADD cases are from parental abuse, just most.

 

Evidence? You will find none, because none exists (that most cases of ADD are from parental abuse).

 

 

And genes, at the right age, can be activated by environmental pressures.

 

Interesting. I did read the link, and may have a comment after pondering it.

 

There is that experiment (anyone got the link?) where kittens blind folded on one eye from birth, for a period of time, never recover their vision in the blind folded eye, suggesting a lack of the right environmental input has cased this problem. Genes didn’t get the right input to function correctly.

 

I also find this interesting, however it says nothing about rehabilitation because we don’t know everything that there is to know about rehabilitation, especially in regards to learning disabilities, the brain. We don’t know everything there is to know about genes.

 

How is it that a mans lost finger tip grows back, including the finger nail, by adding some concoction from a pigs bladder? Who would have ever thunk it? Obviously, somebody did. Why give up hope for children of learning disabilities, their families, and society at large?

 

Are you again comparing apples to oranges?

 

 

seven8s

Little boys are diagnosed in a significantly higher proportion with ADD/ADHD then little girls.

 

dichotomy

That’s interesting if true, because boys are the ones that are thumped around more often than girls, and primarily by their fathers.

 

A simple google will yield you the answer that boys are more often diagnoses with ADD/ADHD then girls.

 

Having said that, children need fathers. Children need loving fathers, kind fathers, strong fathers, generous fathers and most important, knowledgeable and participatory fathers. How do we get those kinds of fathers, in regards to this topic, ADD/ADHD?

 

Would it help to dispel the myths and the ignorance in regards to the subject matter. Would it help to bring them out of their shame, embarrassment in regards to this subject, and many others for that matter?

 

ADD like symptoms are possibly an evolutionary relic that was vital for survival at one point in time and still is vital in some cultures.

 

There are those professionals that would agree with you, hence would also say that it is not a disorder, but rather characteristics of a particular individual, hence, to even label a child as ADD/ADHD is wrong. Perhaps it could be said that they do not have learning disabilities, but rather have been denied, for whatever reason, learning opportunities, that are more beneficial to their particular characteristics for the benefit of their well being, and societies at large.

 

 

 

 

seven8s

No one knows why a child is not preforming to expectations until proper testing is administered. Would we suture a wound with anti-biotics?

At least with some form of measurable testing, ADD kids have a chance at being diagnosed correctly and given effective behavioural, diet, exercise and medicinal therapy. And still, their parents could use a decent dose of the “proper” therapy themselves.

 

That is an opinion, and you will find many who agree with you. I believe that in philosophy they call that an appeal to authority, and or an appeal to majority (if there is such a thing as an appeal to majority in a philosophical argument). And? Well, I guess it answers the ‘begging the question’ argument, which appears to me to be an argument designed to seek agreement (?). From there it appears to me that agreement is promoted to be the truth, but that is not, imo, necessarily the truth.

 

From there, do other points of view exist, and do they have any merit, worth consideration?

 

In that there are various opinions amongst professionals as to whether or not ADD/ADHD is a valid disorder, is there another angle with which to approach the subject? I happen to be of the opinion that there is.

 

‘Some form of measurable’ testing will not do because you may or may not get an accurate diagnosis.

 

I knew a little girl (three years old) who was presented to her local pediatrician over a period of time with symptoms of a common cold that the child could not shake. Eventually, at some point the flu was suspected to be the cause of the child’s illness. When the flu didn’t go away, allergies were suspected, and sure enough upon testing allergies were confirmed. They were minor allergies common in little children. Cold/flu/allergies all present similar symptoms, or global symptoms, of a suppressed immune system. The doctor treated each illness as he thought it was. However, the allergies did not go away with treatment. The child remained sick, was in fact getting sicker. Nothing was working until it was discovered that the child had leukemia, and thank goodness, before it was too late. She is now 40 years old, a survivor.

 

seven8s

Neither ADD/ADHD or any other learning disability is a mere phenomenon. It is a real, physical disorder, no different then a broken leg, cancer, strep throat, yada, yada.

 

iNow

I quite agree, and probably should have chosen a better word.

 

 

But then again, maybe not. I had forgotten that there are experts that do not agree that ADD/ADHD is in fact a disorder, until I read the above post. Ironically, that adds to the difficulties children and their families suffer in regards to the stigmas attached to this diagnosis, and/or mis-diagnosis. It particularly hurts them in the educational setting where the myth continues to thrive that ADD/ADHD is a direct cause of uncaring, uncooperative, lazy, and or abusive parenting. They have even developed names for them: dysfunctional families, white or black trash, trailer trash are a few that come to mind. Then they, the shamer’s and the namer’s, promptly wipe there hands clean.

 

It is a frustrating subject, and it is quite tempting, even appealing to throw ones hands up and walk away.

 

For the most part, excluding profoundly sick individuals, parents do not have children so that they can hurt them. They don’t have children with the hope of continuing dysfunction that they may have experienced in their own lives. Children represent the hope to engender new life, for the child and the self. I believe that there is another urge to explain reproduction, other then the primitive urge to survival of the species and that is procreation, which has nothing to do with religion, intelligent design and all the baggage that goes with that subject.

[iNow]

Sounds primarily genetic to me.

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12953298

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a common and impairing neuropsychiatric disorder with onset at preschool age. Although a significant amount of progress has been made investigating the neurobiology of this disorder, its precise etiology still remains unclear. Converging evidence from studies of the neuropharmacology, genetics, neuropsychology, and neuroimaging of ADHD imply the involvement of fronto-striatal circuitry in ADHD. However, while it does appear that poor inhibitory control and the deficits in fronto-striatal circuitry associated with it are central, there is evidence to suggest that more posterior cerebral areas are also implicated in this disorder. Anatomical studies suggest widespread reductions in volume throughout the cerebrum and cerebellum, while functional imaging studies suggest that affected individuals activate more diffuse areas than controls during the performance of cognitive tasks. The future impact of new MR imaging methodologies on the field is discussed.

 

 

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92455272

This week in the Journal of Neuroscience, scientists report that in two brothers with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, a genetic change appears to make one of the brain's neurochemical pathways — the dopamine transporter — run in reverse. The result of that miswiring is that the brain acts as if amphetamines are always present, the researchers say.

 

Randy Blakely, one of the study's authors, and Allan D. Bass, professor of pharmacology and psychiatry at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, talk about the findings and what they might mean for ADHD treatment.

[seven8s]

This week in the Journal of Neuroscience, scientists report that in two brothers with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, a genetic change appears to make one of the brain's neurochemical pathways — the dopamine transporter — run in reverse. The result of that miswiring is that the brain acts as if amphetamines are always present, the researchers say.

 

Randy Blakely, one of the study's authors, and Allan D. Bass, professor of pharmacology and psychiatry at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, talk about the findings and what they might mean for ADHD treatment.

 

 

I find that intriguing.

 

Adolescence with ADHD have a particularly high incidence of illegal drug usage. It is known that drug addicts develop a tolerance of their drugs of choice, which precipitates a need to up the dosage to sustain the high, or feeling of well being. Addiction then becomes a vicious cycle of self destruction which sucks everything and everybody within it perimeter into the same hole. Which on a positive note would include doctors, rehabs, scientific breakthroughs............teachers, parents, lawyers, judges.

 

Today’s drugs of choice are prescription drugs. Many of today’s addicts that are ADHD were given narcotics to treat their ADHD symptoms as small children, or vulnerable teenagers. Did this precipitate a knowing and a tolerance, creating future addicts of illegal drugs?

 

Iow’s, what I am asking is this; is it possible that a brain, that acts as if amphetamines are always present, build a tolerance of amphetamines, much the same way an addicts brain builds a tolerance? As such, the introduction of drugs such as Ritalin, may initially provide a sense of well being, through the mechanism of focus and concentration, but, over a period of time a secondary tolerance is being built as well as an unconscious means of re-mediating it?

 

I guess what I am asking hypothetically is this: Are we unwittingly teaching our children’s brains drug addictions?

[pioneer]

The original point is, this affect appears to be increasing. If it is genetic there is a wide range genetic change occurring. What caused this genetic change in such a short time? Or if was it always there, did culture change nurture so its affects are much more pronounced? The first requires we rethinking slow boat evolutionary theory, since this very fast. The second implies we need to look how culture has changed, nurturing.

[iNow]

As I've already said, it's much more likely that it's just a growth in awareness of the issue. No need to completely retool evolutionary theory due to some misapplication of it.

[dichotomy]

Really? What kind of pressure?

 

That’s a very good question, and I don’t know. It would have to be empirically tested by our scientific friends. But I’m sure some pressure would be required. That’s how behaviour is modified, yes? Behaviour can be re-conditioned. Even cannibals and right wing christians can be re-programmed when they see the right evidence.

 

 

You jest, correct? Perhaps we can have an enlightening conversation, without resorting to boxing gloves, and or bringing our own baggage to the table.

 

No, I don’t jest. Some form of pressure is necessary. This forum is full of pressure, and generally the positive sort. If baggage is our shared, not so good, history; then we need this history to guide us in the present and future. How else do we make successful decisions without good/bad history?

 

 

Evidence? You will find none, because none exists (that most cases of ADD are from parental abuse).

 

I agree. I’ve gone too far here, thanks for the pressure . I’ll go back to speculating it’s a significant amount. I’ll patiently wait for the evidence to build. Of course it’s a highly touchy subject for research. How many scientists would put their hands up for this and risk a load of parental abuse and threats, even from their own parents? How many abusive parents would put their hands up for big brother like surveillance of their parenting practices? Not many, I’d safely bet. And particularly not abusive parents.

 

 

There is that experiment (anyone got the link?) where kittens blind folded on one eye from birth, for a period of time, never recover their vision in the blind folded eye, suggesting a lack of the right environmental input has cased this problem. Genes didn’t get the right input to function correctly.

I also find this interesting, however it says nothing about rehabilitation because we don’t know everything that there is to know about rehabilitation, especially in regards to learning disabilities, the brain. We don’t know everything there is to know about genes.

 

Eye sight never recovers after a certain amount of time has passed (6 months?).

Yep, as you say, we don’t know everything there is to know about genes, including how nurture shapes them, let alone nature.

 

How is it that a mans lost finger tip grows back, including the finger nail, by adding some concoction from a pigs bladder? Who would have ever thunk it? Obviously, somebody did. Why give up hope for children of learning disabilities, their families, and society at large?

 

 

I’m not suggesting giving up hope on children. And that finger tip including the whole nail story is a hoax. Are you trolling now? I cut my finger tip off including part of the nail and it grew back too, no pig involved. It’s not remarkable, just a widely known medical fact.

 

There are those professionals that would agree with you, hence would also say that it is not a disorder, but rather characteristics of a particular individual, hence, to even label a child as ADD/ADHD is wrong. Perhaps it could be said that they do not have learning disabilities, but rather have been denied, for whatever reason, learning opportunities, that are more beneficial to their particular characteristics for the benefit of their well being, and societies at large.

 

All I’m suggesting is that in particular environments it may be a successful set of characteristics. In academic environments, it would generally be a disaster, but I’m sure there are exceptions.

[seven8s]

Dichotomy.

I agree. I’ve gone too far here, thanks for the pressure . I’ll go back to speculating it’s a significant amount. I’ll patiently wait for the evidence to build. Of course it’s a highly touchy subject for research. How many scientists would put their hands up for this and risk a load of parental abuse and threats, even from their own parents? How many abusive parents would put their hands up for big brother like surveillance of their parenting practices? Not many, I’d safely bet. And particularly not abusive parents.

 

 

Attempting to guess what point someone is trying to create, especially from one who is not willing to be forthright, leaves another to surmise. Perhaps it is a game people play for the entertainment value. Rather then surmise, I’ll leave you to your entertainment for someone else to surmise, from there you can entertain one another.

 

pioneer

The original point is, this affect appears to be increasing.

 

True or not it begs the question, ‘why’ to those who consider the subject and want an answer. Not all who notice/observe want an answer, which in and of itself may beg the question, ‘why’ to those who do want an answer. Unless they are able to give a satisfactory answer as to why they don’t want an answer, to those who do want an answer, those who do want an answer are only left to surmise why those who do not want an answer, do not want an answer.

 

Did you get that?

 

If it is genetic there is a wide range genetic change occurring. What caused this genetic change in such a short time? Or if was it always there, did culture change nurture so its affects are much more pronounced? The first requires we rethinking slow boat evolutionary theory, since this very fast. The second implies we need to look how culture has changed, nurturing.

 

 

The only thing it (the increase of children diagnosed with ADD and or ADHD) suggests, is that all options are open for consideration, to determine if in fact ADD/ADHD has significantly risen over a given period of time, in order to determine the truth. It seems to me that the mistake you are making is assuming that all diagnosed cases of ADD, and or ADHD are correctly diagnosed. If you don’t know the answer to that question you cannot even make an assertion that ADD/ADHD has risen or lowered in any proportion, in any period of time, let alone significantly.

 

 

Until you know the truth you are pouring water into a bucket with a hole, avoidance.

 

The reason I post? It is called fishing. Perhaps there is a parent who keys in the words ADD/ADHD and this site pops up, because they went fishing. I just want to make sure they get another opinion and don’t start slapping their kid around, or spare the rod, spoil the child, which if you think about it is an interesting pun on my point of view.

 

If one spares (withholds) the rod (measurement/proper evaluation) do they spoil (harm) the child? I think they do.

 

 

ADD/ADHD has symptoms of other disabilities. Treating one disability with the solution for another disability is pouring water into a bucket with a hole in it.

 

In the USA, parents have the right to a full learning disabilities assessment for their children, if they suspect that their child is learning disabled. An ADD/ADHD assessment cannot determine whether or not a child has a learning disability, hence, specifically identify what that learning disability is. Therefore it seems logical for me to conclude that it does not necessarily determine whether or not a child is truly ADD/ADHD., for the reason I have attempted to lay out.

 

It, learning disabilities, and ADD/ADHD are complicated, complex issues, which makes them ripe for abuse. In that we are discussing children, it is my hope that we will try to understand the issue.

 

The ‘spanking’ part of the op is a whole other issue. It has no connection what so ever to ADD/ADHD, nor learning disabilities, except perhaps parental, scholastic, and religious frustration and ignorance.

 

If I am wrong perhaps there is another who posts here, and or reads this forum, specifically one in the educational setting here in the USA, who would like to discuss the issue.