pride and shame

[dichotomy]

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/080811_pride.htm

 

"Blind athletes who have never seen a victory celebration raise their arms in triumph when they win and slump their shoulders when they lose, much like sighted athletes, researchers have found."

 

When suggesting that pride and shame behavioural expressions are cross cultural and universal. I wonder if they took into account the culture of competitive sports which is a subculture in itself? They seem to shoot themselves in the foot when the say that western athletes display shame differently. Making behaviour not so universal then after all.

[blazarwolf]

As freud would say... There is nurture and nature.... Perhaps to our western culture this is nurture, and to the sight that is blindness this is nature.

[iNow]

FWIW... Freud is not known for his discussion of nature/nurture.

[blazarwolf]

Wow I just learned a new accronym, Niice.. Yeah, I havent read much on/of freud. I was just name dropping from a distant memmory of my socratic seminar teacher. In that spirit Ill provide a short rebuttle.

Frued had great insight on less than direct topics onto nurture. During his time, Darwin must have had a huge influence on him. Darwins is less than direct as it applys to the mind, but non-the-less graft the minds of darwin and frued together, and well... there you have it, The supreme NvN superego.

[iNow]

When suggesting that pride and shame behavioural expressions are cross cultural and universal. I wonder if they took into account the culture of competitive sports which is a subculture in itself? They seem to shoot themselves in the foot when the say that western athletes display shame differently. Making behaviour not so universal then after all.

 

As silly as it sounds, I think your version of "universal" may be too narrow.

 

Even animals exhibit pride and shame. When I toss the toy to my dog and he catches it mid-air, he puffs up his chest, raises his chin and tail, and exhibits great pride.

 

Considering I've seen it in my dog, and other animals do the same, I think the universality of it is not likely to be extinguished by your discussion of slight differences across subgroups or geographical regions in humans.

[dichotomy]

Hi iNow, how’s it going?

 

My point is that on one hand they suggest a 'universality' of behavior existing, and then on the other hand they suggest it is not so after observing western athletes. Which suggests, to me, that pride and shame behavioral expressions are sub-cultural and not cross cultural afterall. Universal is universal, otherwise they should choose a different word like, cultural. I just don't go for their observations as being 'naturally' global. I also think that the global spread of the mass media will make things very difficult to differentiate when behaviours are 'natural' to when behaviours are 'conditioned'. We are all heavily exposed to seeing how US citizens express emotions to things in film and TV. We rarely see televised P.N.G mountain tribes people express emotions to events.

 

If you break things down we have a testosterone release (I suggest is linked with pride) and a cortisol release (I suggest is linked with shame). We all share these chemicals and their effects. But what I’m saying is that the intensity/expression of behavior that results from these chemicals is cultural/subcultural. I am, as per usual, open to experts, and others, differing opinions on this.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414174855.htm

Testosterone Levels Predict City Traders' Profitability

 

Perhaps to our western culture this is nurture, and to the sight that is blindness this is nature.

whaa? :confused: sorry, you have lost me here.

[DrP]

I'll never forget Sally Gunnel winning Olympic Gold and breaking the world record for the 400m hurdles. Farmer-Patrick (I think) came a VERY close second and was right on her shoulder. As they crossed the line you could see the body chemistry kicking in (cortisol), Farmer-Patrick colapsed in a quivering reck, unable to get up off the floor - Gunnel though (adrenaline boost) jumped for joy and went sprinting off to do a lap of honour - probably alot faster than I could!! Brilliant! And a good demonstration of the chemistry involved with winning and loosing.

[dichotomy]

Yes athletes are a good demonstration of shared chemistry, but depending on the athlete the intensity and type of body language, and the quantity of chemical release would differ between athletes.

 

So, I speculate that the intensity and type of body language is shaped by nurture (culture/ subculture); the chemical reaction of being successful (testosterone) or unsuccessful (cortisol) is shaped by nature. The quantity of an individual’s chemical release is shaped by both nature and nurture and is very much dependent on how success/non-success is perceived by the individual involved?