north Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 there is this wide pervasive thinking that time, in and of its self , has some real physical essence to it inotherwords time has influence on the movement of objects is this true ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilded Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Seeing how well relativity has been doing for so many years I'd say that the physical concept of time cannot just be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 Seeing how well relativity has been doing for so many years I'd say that the physical concept of time cannot just be ignored. but nevertheless is in correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 To answer your question you're going to have to carefully define what you mean by "real physical essence" and "influence on the movements of objects" What is true is that you can't write equations of motion for objects without some time component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 To answer your question you're going to have to carefully define what you mean by "real physical essence" and "influence on the movements of objects" inotherwords can time ( in and of its self alone ) move stilled objects ? What is true is that you can't write equations of motion for objects without some time component. true but what is more importantly true , is that the equations of the motion of objects don't come from time its self but the interaction of objects with other objects or the energy within a single object its self therefore it is the energy within the objects themselves and as well their interaction(s) with other objects which create the situation of which time can be concieved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Time is as real as space... neither of them can "move stilled objects", but curvature of space-time due to gravity can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 Time is as real as space... neither of them can "move stilled objects", but curvature of space-time due to gravity can. time is not as real as space at all time is merely a mathamatical concept used to to understand movement gravity doesn't curve space but curves the matter within that space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 time is not as real as space at all time is merely a mathamatical concept used to to understand movement What makes you say that? Just as distance is the separation between objects, duration is the separation between states of a system. Time and space are similar concepts in that they are both just separations. They are also both relative with respect to reference frames due to the energy differences between frames. gravity doesn't curve space but curves the matter within that space What makes you say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Gravity curves space time. Relativity shows us quite clearly that space and time are 4 of the same... If you're going to state that time and space are not both dimensions you're going to need some pretty sturdy proof... and I mean mathematical and experimental proof here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 north time is not as real as space at all time is merely a mathamatical concept used to to understand movement What makes you say that? Just as distance is the separation between objects, duration is the separation between states of a system. distance is well distance duration on the other hand is based on the energy applied to either system or just by one system to move together or apart and that energy is based on the energy of the system and/or particles involved , time has nothing to contribute and was never meant to Time and space are similar concepts in that they are both just separations. They are also both relative with respect to reference frames due to the energy differences between frames. relative is about perspective . human perspective but to the object(s) there is no perspective , they , the objects , just do what they do gravity doesn't curve space but curves the matter within that space What makes you say that? because space has no substance in and of its self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 I feel more edjamacated already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Time does not require energy, space (distance) does not require energy. Relativity is NOT about human observers, Muons in the upper atmosphere have a different decay time than those that are stationary because they are moving at relativistic speeds. Space does have a structure, ask any general relativity expert.... If you're going to argue with me you need mathematical evidence and observable evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuri Danoyan Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 there is this wide pervasive thinking that time, in and of its self , has some real physical essence to it inotherwords time has influence on the movement of objects is this true ? see please my thread http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Time does not require energy, space (distance) does not require energy. Relativity is NOT about human observers, Muons in the upper atmosphere have a different decay time than those that are stationary because they are moving at relativistic speeds. you failed to mention what the difference in the decay time is between the muons in the upper atmosphere and those muons that are stationary fill me in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I'm not really here this weekend but this article should show you an experiment that will allow you to find the muon decay time in the upper atmosphere. http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0031-9120/33/5/012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 I'm not really here this weekend but this article should show you an experiment that will allow you to find the muon decay time in the upper atmosphere. http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0031-9120/33/5/012 I don't have the money to by it so be so kind as to give your argument Time does not require energy, space (distance) does not require energy. I disagree the essence of time is all about movement or energy of objects and their interactions and the consequence(s) of their in the change of position because of an objects energy or movement if ten objects were frozen still in that moment of position how does the addition of time change anything of their position ? time doesn't , at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark matter Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Time cannot move stilled objects itself, but with the help of space and maybe something like gravity, it is very easy to move objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Time cannot move stilled objects itself, but with the help of space and maybe something like gravity, it is very easy to move objects. think about what you just posted space can help ? how ? space has NO physical substance in and of its self and gravity is based on the physical , physical objects so to you , time is based on gravity and gravity is based on physical objects and therefore time is based on physical objects and the ability of these objects to move other physical objects by gravity hence the essence of time , the movement of physical objects and the resultant measurement of this movement by using time rationally thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 You remind of Fred, or maybe Graviphoton. Even if you're not them, you're walking down the same path they chose to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 You remind of Fred, or maybe Graviphoton. Even if you're not them, you're walking down the same path they chose to follow. I know neither of these people so they are irrelevant so can you not see the reasoning of my last post ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark matter Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 think about what you just posted space can help ? how ? space has NO physical substance in and of its self and gravity is based on the physical , physical objects so to you , time is based on gravity and gravity is based on physical objects and therefore time is based on physical objects and the ability of these objects to move other physical objects by gravity hence the essence of time , the movement of physical objects and the resultant measurement of this movement by using time rationally thinking All I was trying to say is that time cannot move an object on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 You remind of Fred, or maybe Graviphoton. Even if you're not them, you're walking down the same path they chose to follow. I know neither of these people so they are irrelevant Oh, that's right. The name I was trying to remember was Eric 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I thought Eric5 tried to use math.....I get them all mixed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Same tone, but you're right... they all look the same to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north Posted August 24, 2008 Author Share Posted August 24, 2008 Originally Posted by north think about what you just posted space can help ? how ? space has NO physical substance in and of its self and gravity is based on the physical , physical objects so to you , time is based on gravity and gravity is based on physical objects and therefore time is based on physical objects and the ability of these objects to move other physical objects by gravity hence the essence of time , the movement of physical objects and the resultant measurement of this movement by using time rationally thinking All I was trying to say is that time cannot move an object on its own. good then we are in agreement now the implications of this relisation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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