Street art in England vs. America

[bascule]

England's most celebrated street artist is most certainly Banksy, who's pulled a number of quite interesting stunts like doctoring several copies of Paris Hilton's album and distributing them in music stores, but he's mostly known for his "graffiti".

 

Banksy is revered as a cultural hero, and many municipalities meticulously protect and restore his artworks. Well, that's England for you...

 

Back here in America we don't have a Banksy, but we have Shepard Fairey. There's two likely paths you've encountered his artwork: his now ubiquitous portrait of Obama, or his infamous "Obey Giant" artwork:

 

(and yes, that's him putting those posters up)

 

Well, I was quite sad to see that he was arrested at the DNC. Yes, here in America we arrest our street artists for spreading hope.

 

That said, Banksy has taken a trip to the states to decorate New Orleans. It'll be interesting to see if America arrests Banksy too...

[Pangloss]

The Republicans must have paid off the Denver police! Yeaaaaah! Or, wait, did he confront them violently after they asked him to stop participating in an obvious Tragedy of the Commons scenario, since obviously you can't let everyone put graffiti everywhere? Let's go to your link and see if the answer lies there:

 

... for charges ranging from “assault on a police officer” to “throwing stones or missiles.”

 

Oh. I guess it does. Sounds like this was properly handled. Thanks Bascule.

[ParanoiA]

The Republicans must have paid off the Denver police! Yeaaaaah! Or, wait, did he confront them violently after they asked him to stop participating in an obvious Tragedy of the Commons scenario, since obviously you can't let everyone put graffiti everywhere? Let's go to your link and see if the answer lies there:

 

 

 

Oh. I guess it does. Sounds like this was properly handled. Thanks Bascule.

 

No, no, no. It's perfectly fine to paint all over other people's property when it's a political message of altruism. Kind of like how it's ok to rob people when you give the rewards to poor people.

 

I know that if bascule woke up to find his bike spray painted pink with Obey Giant graffiti, he would understand that he forfeited his property rights since it's a really good political message.

[iNow]

And this is why our society is so polarized. Too many people can no longer disagree without making it personal or mocking the other.

[Pangloss]

I don't think that's why society is polarized, and if mocking is a problem then one should steer clear of mocking groups, not just individuals. What does mocking groups tell us that's relevant to the conversation about improving society, iNow?

[iNow]

I dunno, P. Why don't you tell me since you already seem to have an answer in mind.

[Pangloss]

Sure. Nothing.

[bascule]

Let's go to your link and see if the answer lies there:

 

... for charges ranging from “assault on a police officer” to “throwing stones or missiles.”

 

Oh. I guess it does. Sounds like this was properly handled. Thanks Bascule.

 

What the insane Pangloss logic? Let's see if I follow it correctly here:

 

1) Some people were arrested at the DNC for charges ranging from “assault on a police officer” to “throwing stones or missiles.”

2) Shepherd Fairey was arrested at the DNC

C) Shepherd Fairey was clearly assaulting police officers and throwing stones or missiles

 

QED!

 

Read harder, Pangloss:

 

On the evening of August 25, Fairey decided to take a break from installing the gallery show to hang posters around downtown Denver, wheat-pasting them to the sides of buildings. Denver artist Scot Lefavor and a small crew of filmmakers making a documentary on Fairey went along. But when artists tried to apply their trade in an alleyway near 16th and Sherman Street around midnight, all five of them were arrested by police, charged with "interference and posting unauthorized posters."

[Pangloss]

Oh ok, so he was only arrested for defacing someone's property. Well that's okay, because it was probably just some faceless, wealthy, white Republican. I stand corrected, thanks for straightening me out.

[iNow]

Can you stop with the invective already?

[bascule]

Oh ok, so he was only arrested for defacing someone's property. Well that's okay, because it was probably just some faceless, wealthy, white Republican. I stand corrected, thanks for straightening me out.

 

He got arrested for putting up posters. Hope posters. Posters he designed. A design that's probably the most noteworthy this year. I'm sure you could eBay those posters for hundreds of dollars now.

[iNow]

But what about the fact that he was altering property that he didn't own?

[bascule]

But what about the fact that he was altering property that he didn't own?

 

Well, that's the nature of street art. Banksy's alterations are done with paint. You'd be an idiot to paint over one. The proper thing to do is put it in a display case, or rip out the entire section of wall and put it on display somewhere. I'm sure people would kill to commission a Banksy work on their building, but that's just not how he operates, which is part of the value (although the Swiss Embassy managed to vicariously commission a Banksy by opening up their parking garage to whichever street artists wanted to paint there)

 

Shepherd Fairey was putting up posters. People tape up posters on the street all the time. I wasn't under the impression that it's something you could even get arrested for. It's an easily reversible act (just rip the poster down) and again, you'd be an idiot to throw the posters in the trash. Hang onto it for a few years and (particularly if Obama gets elected) you'll have quite the collector's item on your hands.

 

It's really hard to argue that a street artist of Shepard Fairey's caliber is defacing your property, even if you're a Republican. He may as well be defacing your property with hundred dollar bills.

 

Also, why did they arrest the camera crew? Conspiracy to commit street art? I see this as a case of a bunch of philistine cops acting with zero clue about what they were actually doing.

[Pangloss]

So your justification for this crime is that it adds value to the property. Interesting. That argument could be countered with a discussion of true property values, but the real point you're missing is that if you let one person do that then you have to let all people do it. Tragedy of the commons.

 

But what I really want to know is, would you defend what he was doing if the posters he was putting up advocated creationism and opposition to global warming?

[ParanoiA]

So your justification for this crime is that it adds value to the property. Interesting. That argument could be countered with a discussion of true property values, but the real point you're missing is that if you let one person do that then you have to let all people do it. Tragedy of the commons.

 

But what I really want to know is, would you defend what he was doing if the posters he was putting up advocated creationism and opposition to global warming?

 

Well of course not Pangloss, those are stupid and totally not cool.

 

And the point you're missing is that no one else needs to do this except this one dude, since it's really cool stuff that other people should think is cool too.

[iNow]

Well of course not Pangloss, those are stupid and totally not cool.

 

And the point you're missing is that no one else needs to do this except this one dude, since it's really cool stuff that other people should think is cool too.

 

Like I said, guys... Is it possible that we can do this without being rude to each other?

 

 

The real point being missed in my estimation, one which I read into bascule's post, is that the bigger issue under discussion is abuse of power. So, if there are laws that this guy can't put posters up, then so be it. He broke the law, and should get his fine or whatever (arrest does seem excessive to me, but YMMV).

 

But then, why was the film crew ALSO arrested? What were they doing? There are bigger and deeper issues at play here which go far beyond this individuals desire to express himself with art on paper placed on walls.

[ParanoiA]

Like I said, guys... Is it possible that we can do this without being rude to each other?

 

 

The real point being missed in my estimation, one which I read into bascule's post, is that the bigger issue under discussion is abuse of power. So, if there are laws that this guy can't put posters up, then so be it. He broke the law, and should get his fine or whatever (arrest does seem excessive to me, but YMMV).

 

But then, why was the film crew ALSO arrested? What were they doing? There are bigger and deeper issues at play here which go far beyond this individuals desire to express himself with art on paper placed on walls.

 

I'm just pissy about pop culture crap that celebrates breaking the law - even by an itsy bitsy bit - like the gang culture, drug culture, etc. Another one of those annoying principles that requires the individual not to promote violation of law particularly when that same individual spends so much time accusing others of that very thing.

 

In other words, I'm sure GWB probably thinks his reasons of "skirting the law" were of high "caliber". But that's no excuse is it? I'm sure his supporters would say that you'd have to be stupid to "paint over" GWB's telecom shinanigans. But that's no excuse is it?

[iNow]

Well, sure. That makes sense. However, it seems clear that the law is pretty broad and open for interpretation (I remember a friend telling me in college that the police can arrest you for just about anything if they know the laws on the books well enough), which means that folks like the camera crew were just recording it. Why were they arrested, too? "Conspiracy to commit street art?"

[bascule]

I'm just pissy about pop culture crap that celebrates breaking the law - even by an itsy bitsy bit

 

I enjoy a culture that can look at the law and see shades of gray, unfortunately most cops only see their own particular version black and white.

[bascule]

...taken from behind with no verbal orders to disperse, etc:

 

http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2008/09/03/3320/ap_photographers_last_pre-arrest_shot_is_a_stunner

 

After attending the DNC, I really get the feeling the cops at the RNC are 100x worse...

[Pangloss]

Abuse of power? Huh? If they broke the law, they should pay, and if they didn't break the law, they shouldn't have been arrested. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their actions? If they actually believed their actions were worth a sacrifice, they wouldn't object to the sacrifice. Martin Luther King WANTED to be arrested.

 

So this is a question deserving of a short, direct answer, not idle speculation about "abuse of power". And it's not a "shades of gray" issue at all. We have courts. If they didn't break the law, they get lawyers who say so and the government gets embarassed. What's the problem?

 

This is utter nonsense (the second half, I mean; you're certainly entitled to your opinion about cultures):

 

I enjoy a culture that can look at the law and see shades of gray, unfortunately most cops only see their own particular version black and white.

 

Cops aren't judges or law-makers. And I don't think you're defending free speech, I think you're defending a specific agenda. I repeat my question: Would you defend these people if they were putting up posters that advocated creationism and opposition to global warming?

Edited September 4, 2008 by Pangloss

[Pangloss]

No matter how many periods you put on the end of a sentence, the cops still won't be working for the DNC or RNC.

[Mr Skeptic]

It's pretty simple. If other people, or people with other posters, would not get arrested, then this is and abuse of power/discrimination. If they too would get arrested, this is just an example of the law working like it should. Since he was putting the posters up at midnight, it is quite likely that it was illegal and he knew it.

 

I know I wouldn't want to allow random people to place posters on my property. I wouldn't mind if I particularly liked the person or his poster, in which case I wouldn't call the cops or would give retroactive permission, but if the property owner doesn't want posters on his property, that is his right.

 

As for the camera crew, they have a responsibility to report a crime if they witness one. Not doing so, especially when they had advance knowledge that said crime would happen, and were even filming it, marks them as accomplices.

 

Still, it is highly unlikely a jury would convict him, and this might not even make it to court.

[bascule]

Abuse of power? Huh?

 

Well, he's been charged with "interference and posting unauthorized posters" supposedly. I guess the camera crew was arrested for conspiracy to commit interference and post unauthorized posters. I don't know what "interference" is, but unauthorized posters are, at worst, misdemeanor littering, punishable by a $100 fine. It's something you get a ticket for. It's not something you get arrested for, but YSMV.

 

If they didn't break the law, they get lawyers who say so and the government gets embarassed. What's the problem?

 

I suppose I take offense to a figure like Shepherd Fairey, whose imagery is at this point intractably intertwined with the Obama campaign, getting arrested at the DNC for putting up Obama posters "illegally."

 

Cops aren't judges or law-makers. And I don't think you're defending free speech, I think you're defending a specific agenda.

 

Yes, clearly from the OP I have no vested interest in street art. My interest appeared today when I suddenly gained interest when it helped me further a political point about abuse of power at the DNC and RNC.

 

Let me say: I was almost thinking about posting a thread about how police abuse of DNC was overstated, but I unfortunately I didn't manage to snap a photo of a cop in riot gear petting a puppy in time to back it up.

 

I repeat my question: Would you defend these people if they were putting up posters that advocated creationism and opposition to global warming?

 

If their posters looked like this, hell yes:

 

[bascule]

Well, thanks for opening a dialogue, Pangloss. I'm curious if you think there's anything odd about the pre-emptive arrests which have been occurring before the RNC. Is that abnormal, or just standard operating procedure?