The depraved state of US politics

[john5746]

This thread is about the "the depraved state of US politics." It certainly has been a three ring circus since the conventions. I can't help however, but think that most of the discussion in this thread is irrelevant. For the life if me I can't understand why Obama doesn't have poll ratings in the middle fifties. Why can't the guy seal the deal?

 

 

Well, there are many on both sides that have made up their minds - maybe 40%? So, the remaining 20% swing voters are the key. I am one of those who will vote Obama, but one main thing bothers me:

 

Obama's message comes across as "I am going to fix government, so it can help you more"

 

I think this is a valid message, but what sells better is Reagan's and JFK's message: "I am going to fix government, so it will allow you to be your best."

 

When the economy starts having problems, people don't want to hear about what new government programs are needed. It's like telling your kids you just lost your job, now let's build an extension to the house.

[Pangloss]

You have a remarkable insight sometimes, john.

 

I wonder if any of that is attributable to society's present tone and attitude. There was an interesting bit of political wrangling between the two candidates yesterday when McCain made a statement along the lines of the economy's infrastructure being sound, which Obama immediately pounced on, portraying it as if McCain was saying that nothing was wrong. What happened next is interesting: McCain changed his statement at his next stop, talking about how badly the economy is hurting right now.

 

The hyper-reactive aspect of that (the two candidates responding so quickly to one another that even the audience doesn't usually know what they're talking about) is interesting and much reported-on at the moment, but I think what's really interesting about it is how closely the candidates are watching the mood of the country. I don't think it's just the economy, either. I think it's a sign of what the mood of the country is as a whole at the moment. Which, by the way, makes the virtual tie between the two candidates even more interesting.

 

I think that connects to your point about the difference between Obama's message and JFK's. Kennedy was definitely playing to the audience of the day as well. What does that say about the audience of today?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Pangloss

[bombus]

That was the ultra-swiftboat-right argument in 2000. I disagree, since he has worked in congress for many years and has worked quite well with others. Now, having Palin in charge, that is a different matter...

 

What if he does kick the bucket while in office and Palin is suddenly put in charge?

[Phi for All]

What if he does kick the bucket while in office and Palin is suddenly put in charge?

Have you seen the videos of Palin's Third Wave church (the one that was scrubbed from YouTube)? It sounds like if Palin were to become president, she would most likely take it as a sign from God that Armageddon was near and the job of cleansing God's enemies was hers, mandated by the Almighty. Those extremists in the video clearly think this life is worthless compared to what's waiting on the other side. I think a president should be all about *this* life, thanks very much.

 

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/13/1538/09770

[bombus]

Have you seen the videos of Palin's Third Wave church (the one that was scrubbed from YouTube)? It sounds like if Palin were to become president, she would most likely take it as a sign from God that Armageddon was near and the job of cleansing God's enemies was hers, mandated by the Almighty. Those extremists in the video clearly think this life is worthless compared to what's waiting on the other side. I think a president should be all about *this* life, thanks very much.

 

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/13/1538/09770

 

Sorry to blaspheme but JEEZUZ CHRIST! A religous nutter with suicidal tendencies as VP. For all our sakes, vote OBAMA, vote Nader, vote for Daffy Duck if you like, but NOT McCain/Palin!!

[waitforufo]

Well, there are many on both sides that have made up their minds - maybe 40%? So, the remaining 20% swing voters are the key. I am one of those who will vote Obama, but one main thing bothers me:

 

Obama's message comes across as "I am going to fix government, so it can help you more"

 

I think this is a valid message, but what sells better is Reagan's and JFK's message: "I am going to fix government, so it will allow you to be your best."

 

When the economy starts having problems, people don't want to hear about what new government programs are needed. It's like telling your kids you just lost your job, now let's build an extension to the house.

 

Excellent post. Particularly that last bit.

 

I am one of those that will vote for McCain. Since we have both made up our minds, and are unlikely to change, current campaigning can and probably should ignore us. Both campaigns need to be selling the swing voters. Selling committed voters, particularly the entrenched base is just wasting time.

 

I do think Obama however is in a tight spot. He won the nomination by appealing to the more liberal side of the Democratic Party. Moving to the center is difficult because there is just too much video of him during the primaries. McCain can sell himself. Palin doesn't need to say a thing to conservative Republicans she just needs to show up. So Palin can spend all of her time selling McCain. Still, I think Obama and Biden need to spend most of their time selling their ticket and get away from criticizing their opponents.

 

Obama won the primary talking about hope and change. In my opinion he never was to clear on the specifics but at least that was an optimistic message. Americans vote for optimists. People like JFK and Reagan. That is where the swing voters will land. Recently I have seen more optimism from the McCain/Palin ticket. But I wear that tint in my glasses.

 

Pangloss had a good point about the quick response nature of the campaign. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed in McCain. I thought his initial response, assuring Americans of the soundness of the economy, was the responsible one. Inciting panic during a bank run is never a good idea.

[iNow]

I agree with your point that incitement of panic is ultimately bad, however, understanding the reality of the situation and discussing it with reason, maturity, and vision is still quite possible. I'm not seeing a lot of those three characteristics from McCain, and that disappoints me. I like(d) McCain, but am really disappointed by him as of late, for many reasons.

 

The economy is in a bad place, but that's no reason to talk to the public like a bunch of incompetent children who can't handle difficult truths.

[Pangloss]

Didn't we just get through deciding in this forum that it was wrong to condemn Obama for his associations with Rev. Wright and that church's extremism? Why are we now doing the same thing to Sarah Palin?

[iNow]

Take Sarah's church problems out of the deck, and I've still got a straight flush of reasons why she should fold her hand.

[Phi for All]

Didn't we just get through deciding in this forum that it was wrong to condemn Obama for his associations with Rev. Wright and that church's extremism? Why are we now doing the same thing to Sarah Palin?

Holding extreme positions on moral legislation is one thing. Belonging to a church which is looking forward to Armageddon is quite another, don't you think?

 

A president who wants to overthrow Roe v Wade has to go through Congress and the Supreme court, a fairly lengthy process. A president who thinks it's God's will for her to fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations may just be more inclined to go to war and even bring out the nukes in a crisis situation where there's no time for a lengthy process.

 

I think there is a big difference between Rev. Wright's church and the Third Wave Church with respect to how they might influence the judgments of a superpower leader. If a holocaust would fulfill the church's dreams of the Second Coming, why would I want Sarah Palin anywhere near the buttons? Especially if she lives up to past performances and surrounds herself with like-minded cronies?

[ParanoiA]

Holding extreme positions on moral legislation is one thing. Belonging to a church which is looking forward to Armageddon is quite another, don't you think?

 

Any of the babble spouted at church qualifies here. Just about any church on any given sunday will be filled with all kinds of kooky notions that resemble this kind of fantasy. Remember, Obama wants god to make him his tool. How is that any better? Palin didn't even say she's all into the armageddon theory, but Obama DID say he wants god to make him the tool of his will.

 

Give me a break. You know damn good and well you're inflating this nonsense to make it sound like she's running around with her head full of god-fog. Her actions emulate someone who gets her values from her faith, not her marching orders. Just like Obama.

 

Obama is just as guilty as Palin of accepting the fantacial extremism of church rhetoric, taken with a grain of salt. They're both down to earth enough to sluff that shit off, and you can tell by the success in their lives. I don't believe for a minute that Obama really wants to be god's tool and wishes to suspend all individuality for his will. Similarly, I don't believe for a minute that Palin wants to push the button for god, or wishes for a second that her and her family could be in the middle of armageddon.

 

I mean seriously. This is just dumb. A low blow for this board.

 

Neither of them are honest people, and you all just keep playing these disingenuous games pretending as if one really is better than the other. Sickening.

 

This is the deprived state of politics. You are contributing to it 100%. Way to go.

[iNow]

Holding extreme positions on moral legislation is one thing. Belonging to a church which is looking forward to Armageddon is quite another, don't you think?

 

A president who wants to overthrow Roe v Wade has to go through Congress and the Supreme court, a fairly lengthy process. A president who thinks it's God's will for her to fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations may just be more inclined to go to war and even bring out the nukes in a crisis situation where there's no time for a lengthy process.

 

I think there is a big difference between Rev. Wright's church and the Third Wave Church with respect to how they might influence the judgments of a superpower leader. If a holocaust would fulfill the church's dreams of the Second Coming, why would I want Sarah Palin anywhere near the buttons? Especially if she lives up to past performances and surrounds herself with like-minded cronies?

 

 

More on that here:

 

 

http://progressivealaska.blogspot.com/2008/09/saradise-lost-chapter-sixten-palins.html

In June 1997, both Palin and I had responsibilities at the graduation ceremony of a small group of Wasilla area home schoolers. ...

As the ceremony concluded, I bumped into her in a hall away from other people. I congratulated her on her [mayoral] victory, and took her aside to ask about her faith. Among other things, she declared that she was a young earth creationist, accepting both that the world was about 6,000-plus years old, and that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time.

 

I asked how she felt about the second coming and the end times. She responded that she fully believed that the signs of Jesus returning soon "during MY lifetime," were obvious. "I can see that, maybe you can't - but it guides me every day."

 

Our next discussion about religion was after she had switched to the less strict Wasilla Bible Church. She was speaking at, I was performing bugle, at a Veterans ceremony between Wasilla and Palmer. At this time, people were beginning to encourage her to run for Governor.

 

Once again, we found ourselves being able to talk privately. I reminded her of the earlier conversation, asking her if her views had changed. She was no longer "necessarily" a young earth creationist, she told me. But she strongly reiterated her belief that "The Lord is coming soon." I was trying to get her to tell me what she felt the signs were, when she had to move on.

 

 

Creationism (and the fact that she's replaced 3 of 7 on the Education Board with religious friends who sought to remove the word "evolution" from their official science standards), lack of belief in man-made global warming, and silly pastors aside... That's incredibly disturbing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Palin didn't even say she's all into the armageddon theory

 

<...>

 

Give me a break. You know damn good and well you're inflating this nonsense to make it sound like she's running around with her head full of god-fog.

 

<...>

 

I don't believe for a minute that Palin wants to push the button for god, or wishes for a second that her and her family could be in the middle of armageddon.

 

I mean seriously. This is just dumb. A low blow for this board.

 

I advise you again to check your assertions for validity. Maybe you're having a difficult time seeing the facts from way up there on your soapbox.

Edited September 17, 2008 by iNow
multiple post merged

[ParanoiA]

I advise you again to check your assertions for validity.

 

Believing in the return of Jesus, or whatever is not a promotion of armageddon. It is a belief in the return of the savior. It's not "Hey lets the nuke the planet to get armageddon going so Jesus will come back, yeah!!!!"

 

It's kooky, but it's the status quo and has been for quite some time. I'm against it, but fearful? Please, that's contrived. Pretend fear is just like 9/11 fear. It's just fear mongering. Quite appropriate for this thread actually.

[iNow]

Believe what you want. It seems pretty obvious to me that she's... how'd you say it? ... stuck in a cloud of god-fog.

 

Let's review:

 

• Creationism
  
• Iraq is a mission from god
  
• Ban well-written books that teach kids how to deal with homosexual parents
  
• Crazy church that does far more than talk about culturally based wars, but about (yep) armageddon
  
• Wants abstinence only sex education, no real knowledge as proven by science to be shared
  

 

 

Golly. Why ever did I come to the idea that her belief in iron age fairy tales might inform her decisions? You're right. NO DIFFERENCE between her and Obama.

 

 

I do, however, hate the fact that Obama's faith has played such a large role in this election, I'll grant that. However, when it comes to lunacy and discussions of religious belief, I think Palin beats him hands down as off the reality reservation.

 

 

Fear mongering might just be a good thing in this situation. Anyone who is not petrified by the fact that this woman could be so close to the presidency is either asleep or ignorant.

[Phi for All]

Give me a break. You know damn good and well you're inflating this nonsense to make it sound like she's running around with her head full of god-fog. Her actions emulate someone who gets her values from her faith, not her marching orders. Just like Obama.

Let's understand something critical here. I don't really care that anyone in office is a creationist or a gay-hater or would like to end all abortion rights. It's sad to me, and I think it's usually because of misinformation about the subject, but I don't fear that people like that would be able to easily change any of those things. The process is too public and takes enough time to give ample warning to those who oppose them. I figured this out about myself after letting Ron Paul scare me away in the primaries.

 

It bothers me a bit that the candidates have to pander to the "will of God" in their campaigning, but this is what a lot of Americans have come to expect; you throw God a bone and tell the people He's a big influence in your life and His teachings will bring wisdom to your decisions. It's usually about assuring the people that your moral compass is working. It bothers me that it's tied to religion but it's hardly worth mentioning, again because the process should stop anyone from easy legislation in this regard.

 

But we're talking about war and prophecy here. A mandate to enact God's will on earth in a time when most Pentecostals believe they are living the end of days. I can't put this part of the story on my "watch-list" because of the way wars are fought these days. Palin has proven she is every bit as secrecy-minded as Bush is, and I have no doubt she'd be even more persuasive than Bush was if it came to invading another Middle Eastern country.

 

I can't believe you think this is a disingenuous game I'm playing to pretend Obama is the better candidate. This is about war and the justifications for leading a country into it. If I thought Obama was less interested in pursuing diplomacy, his religion would bother me more. Sarah Palin's hawkish, black-and-white stance, coupled with her lack of foreign relations experience, already makes me worry about her if she were to become president, but that's all political and part of the process. Add in the fact that the church she idolizes encourages her to take her *literal* translation of biblical events and view her ascendancy to the most powerful position in the world as a sign from God that Armageddon is near and the world is destined to be consumed in a fire storm from which the righteous will emerge unscathed to sit at the right hand of the Almighty and you bet your ****ing ass I'm genuine in my concern about her being put in that position.

[ParanoiA]

Yes, let's review:

 

Obama asks god to make him his tool

Obama followed a preacher that believes the CIA invented AIDS to kill black people and preaches hate - which is ok, because it's hating white people and they deserve it. Oh, and he wants god to damn america.

Obama wants to teach kids how to use condoms whether parents like it or not

Once belonged to a faith that hates Jews and promotes female servitude

His declared faith believes in the second coming, just like Palin

 

Yeah, golly gee is right. He's nothing like Palin. Palin is not afriad of what she believes. Obama wrights off 20 year relationships to divert what he believes. He sweeps old faiths under the rug to divert what he believes.

 

He's a religious man. Religious people believe in weird things, to you and me. You can guage it all you want, but it still adds up to unsubstantiated belief systems. If you're scared of one, why not the other? They both believe in the second coming of christ.

 

I do, however, hate the fact that Obama's faith has played such a large role in this election, I'll grant that. However, when it comes to looney, I think Palin beats him hands down.

 

But you don't hate it enough to stand up for yourself and demand better. You don't hate it enough to toss aside your partisan worship and call him out on it. You don't hate it enough to roast a democrat for it - you only hate it enough to roast your enemy in the game. The two party siege is working you like a tool.

 

Well I'll do it for you iNow. I'll cast my vote based on the principles you posted before you started worshipping Obama. You keep rewarding the opportunists, I'll reward honest, if flawed, statesmen.

 

 

 

 

Are there really no conservatives here that can defend Palin and McCain? I'm really tired of dreaming up arguments for people I have no intention of rewarding with the white house. Someone has to do it or else this double standard will continue without opposition.

 

Add in the fact that the church she idolizes encourages her [/b']to take her *literal* translation of biblical events and view her ascendancy to the most powerful position in the world as a sign from God that Armageddon is near and the world is destined to be consumed in a fire storm from which the righteous will emerge unscathed to sit at the right hand of the Almighty and you bet your ****ing ass I'm genuine in my concern about her being put in that position.

 

This is why I think you're being disingenuous, if unintentionally so. Her church encourages this and yet we just went through this kind of nonsense with Wright - he believed the crazy shit, not Obama.

 

You're doing the same thing. The only difference here is that Palin refuses to write off these people. Obama tosses them under the bus. And in all actuality, they're both doing it for their respective bases. Yet, both of them are guilty of being surrounded by quacks. I haven't even started on Obama's other ties with shady characters that aren't sorry for previously committed terrorism in their lives.

 

I realize your position is more thoughtful than most, trust me. But the way you're parsing Palin and Obama on this issue is way too fine of a line to be legitimate. We're calling one a quack and one well rounded based on two extra bits of religious info in one column versus the other. Hell, the margin of error on what we actually know about what each candidate truly believes is higher than that.

 

It bothers me a bit that the candidates have to pander to the "will of God" in their campaigning, but this is what a lot of Americans have come to expect; you throw God a bone and tell the people He's a big influence in your life and His teachings will bring wisdom to your decisions. It's usually about assuring the people that your moral compass is working. It bothers me that it's tied to religion but it's hardly worth mentioning, again because the process should stop anyone from easy legislation in this regard.

 

It's very worth mentioning. It's an unsubstantiated belief system that they are either pretending to believe in, or really do believe in - which is worse? To me, lying is unforgiveable.

 

Ron Paul is a religio also, and I hate it as well, but he isn't a liar and I think he really does believe in this stuff. Obviously, I'm ok with it. I had to weigh it out, and I decided I'm willing to accept that flaw. But if he was trying to distance himself from it, to present himself falsely, or to write off people (like the 9/11 truthers) he would lose my support. But that didn't happen. Instead, the most embarrassing group out there, the 9/11 truthers, got an honest Dr Paul - he refused to agree with their assessment on 9/11, and he refused to denounce them on national TV. He stood up and declared they have a right to speak their minds because they are americans.

 

Why didn't Obama do that? Why doesn't Palin? Answer: They are opportunists.

 

I realize you accept lip service to religion, even if they're lying, but I don't. Honesty, or nothing. That's the biggest problem, to me. Crazy beliefs? Everybody has them. Let's get real and hear them. The only way to get real, is to stop punishing honesty. To quit pretending like religion is mental illness and to quit acting like hard core christians that believe in the second coming of christ haven't been enjoying access to the red button already.

Edited September 17, 2008 by ParanoiA
multiple post merged

[iNow]

But you don't hate it enough to stand up for yourself and demand better.

I am provided with two legitimate options in this election. After doing my cost/benefit analysis, I see Obama as the better option.

 

 

You don't hate it enough to toss aside your partisan worship and call him out on it.

Bullshit, and I'd also like you to support your contention that I am engaged in "partisan worship." You should know me better than that by now, ParanoiA. I am open to a good argument. I change my mind when convinced by the facts, and if you think I'm here engaging in partisan worship then you're a fool (and, I know you're not, so let's just assume you're mistaken about this "partisan worship" label to which you've assigned me).

 

 

You don't hate it enough to roast a democrat for it - you only hate it enough to roast your enemy in the game.

Again, bullshit. There are, however, different levels and methods being used here when it comes to religion.

 

 

The two party siege is working you like a tool.

I'm glad you have such respect for my position. I'm clearly a robot who eats the talking points and regurgitates them. Thanks. It's nice being so understood and represented so accurately.

 

 

Well I'll do it for you iNow. I'll cast my vote based on the principles you posted before you started worshipping Obama. You keep rewarding the opportunists, I'll reward honest, if flawed, statesmen.

I don't worship anything. Please stop.

 

Also, how is the Obama/Biden ticket not more honest, less flawed, and more statesman-like than McCain/Palin? I'd really like to hear your argument on that.

 

 

Are there really no conservatives here that can defend Palin and McCain? I'm really tired of dreaming up arguments for people I have no intention of rewarding with the white house. Someone has to do it or else this double standard will continue without opposition.

 

This isn't debate class. We don't have to represent each side equally. This a place where intelligent people speak their minds. It just seems that more intelligent people than not are against the McCain/Palin ticket and what it stands for.

[ParanoiA]

Bullshit, and I'd also like you to support your contention that I am engaged in "partisan worship." You should know me better than that by now, ParanoiA. I am open to a good argument. I change my mind when convinced by the facts, and if you think I'm here engaging in partisan worship then you're a fool (and, I know you're not, so let's just assume you're mistaken about this "partisan worship" label to which you've assigned me).

 

You're roasting Palin as a quack and rewarding Obama as well rounded based on a slightly shorter list of unsubstantiated belief system dogma. Sorry, but my bullshit detector is just going off here. If you're not partisan, then prove it by stepping up your criticism of Obama's religious tripe or stepping down your criticism of Palin's. They both believe in the same basic things, only Obama's church isn't on youtube today - they already went through this bull.

 

Also, how is the Obama/Biden ticket not more honest, less flawed, and more statesman-like than McCain/Palin? I'd really like to hear your argument on that.

 

 

I don't think there's much statesmenship from either of them. I truly don't know which one is worse, but then, it's of little interest. It's like asking if Ted Bundy was worse than John Wayne Gacy. I suppose one is worse than the other, but both of them crossed the line after the first dead body.

 

iNow, you are terrifically balanced in the absence of an election. I suppose all of us get tilted to some degree, it's inevitable and not preventable. Maybe you're being honest to yourself, but from where I'm sitting it seems like Obama can't do anything wrong and McCain / Palin can't do anything right. Real life isn't like that. You're too dynamic to line up to one side like that, unless of course, you're feeling invested in the race.

 

Also, keep in mind that I'm rather petulant around election time. Remember, I blame us for the politicians we get to choose from, so it shouldn't be any surprise that I would criticize us for choosing them. We don't fix anything by enabling it - which is akin to your alternative fuel argument - we can't drill ourselves out of this. Well, you can't do the same ole same ole to get something different.

 

You want change? Then change, my friend.

[iNow]

In all honesty, much of my approach here is just how deathly scared I am that our insane sheeple of a populace might must elect McCain/Palin, both of whom have been caught in more lies and ridiculous statements than I can remember ever from a politician.

 

I am also someone who is invested in environmentalism and also the fight against creationist nonsense which ignores the mountains of evidence in favor of evolution.

 

Those two concerns of mine skewed me VERY heavily against Palin. I was still teetering somewhat on Obama v. McCain... UNTIL Palin wound up on the Republican ticket. That eliminated all doubt in my mind.

 

Also, Obama does have issues. I won't sit here and try to lie and say he doesn't. But when it comes to measuring those issues against his other qualifications and abilities, against the way he talks about real issues and how much he knows, against how he seems to want to steer this country in a direction with which I agree... then those religious based concerns of mine lose some of their poignance.

 

Palin though doesn't inspire me about her knowledge. She doesn't reflect my version of where I want the country to go. She doesn't show any concern for the things that I care about, and she proudly represents so many of the things which I hate about humanity.

 

Yes, I've picked a horse in this race. I've picked one that came out ahead when I considered all of the various issues in my mind. Yes, I'm now supporting my pick, trying to convince others and also trying to open up dialogue from others such as yourself so I can continue to evaluate whether or not my own choice is appropriate.

 

That doesnt' make me partisan, though. It means I've picked a favorite. The only thing that might be partisan is how strongly I've been impacted by a deep anxiety that (what is now, since coming to my decision) the "other" side might just win and bring my worst fears to reality.

 

I hope you can appreciate the sincerity of my introspection above.

[Pangloss]

Holding extreme positions on moral legislation is one thing. Belonging to a church which is looking forward to Armageddon is quite another, don't you think?

 

Yeah, that church Obama was a member of was pretty extreme. Still, I don't hold it against him, no.

 

A president who wants to overthrow Roe v Wade has to go through Congress and the Supreme court, a fairly lengthy process. A president who thinks it's God's will for her to fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations may just be more inclined to go to war and even bring out the nukes in a crisis situation where there's no time for a lengthy process.

 

As far as I know there's no evidence that Palin believes that. Just as there's no evidence that Obama holds Rev. Wright's just-as-dire views.

 

 

I think there is a big difference between Rev. Wright's church and the Third Wave Church with respect to how they might influence the judgments of a superpower leader. If a holocaust would fulfill the church's dreams of the Second Coming, why would I want Sarah Palin anywhere near the buttons? Especially if she lives up to past performances and surrounds herself with like-minded cronies?

 

Well now you know how those who had a problem with Obama because of his church association feel.

 

I'm telling you, this is just not a good path to go down. It just does not play out with the public the way you want it to -- that's why I suggest staying above it. But hey, it's a free country, and I respect your opinion on it.

[ParanoiA]

Also, Obama does have issues. I won't sit here and try to lie and say he doesn't. But when it comes to measuring those issues against his other qualifications and abilities, against the way he talks about real issues and how much he knows, against how he seems to want to steer this country in a direction with which I agree... then those religious based concerns of mine lose some of their poignance.

 

That seems fair. I don't see why you can't roast him while simultaneously still drawing that conclusion. Or, why you can't accept Palin's religious dogma in parallel with Obama's "lite" version, while still drawing that same conclusion.

 

I hope you can appreciate the sincerity of my introspection above.

 

I do. You're obviously passionate and a well reasoned gentleman and that reflects in your posts here.

[Sisyphus]

I don't know much about Palin's church and I haven't really been paying attention to the story, so I don't know whether it's scarier than Rev. Wright or not. If it really is one of those "apocalypse is coming any day now, let's hurry it along" places (and I don't know that it is), I'm going to say it is more troubling than black liberation stuff that occasionally gets out of hand, which is the kind of Wright does. Certainly that was exposed to extreme levels of scrutiny, which satisfied me, and I don't think it's crazy to look into Palin's church more deeply, either.

 

Also, with Obama, what ultimately quelled any doubts I had relating to his church was the fact that he explained himself so well. Nobody could read his speeches (including the big one about race) or his many conversations about it and still think he's some kind of religious fanatic that would bring the sentiment of Wright's nastier comments to the White House. Palin, on the other hand, has not yet explained herself. Maybe she will, and maybe it will similarly put us at ease. Or maybe she won't, especially since a lot of her appeal is to people who don't want her to distance herself from that stuff. And if she doesn't, that's certainly a significant reason to try to keep her out of the White House.

[Phi for All]

This is why I think you're being disingenuous, if unintentionally so. Her church encourages this and yet we just went through this kind of nonsense with Wright - he believed the crazy shit, not Obama.

 

You're doing the same thing. The only difference here is that Palin refuses to write off these people. Obama tosses them under the bus.

You say Obama threw Wright under the bus, I say he tried to distance himself from the more extreme views his church had. I never saw anything wrong with not wanting to be associated with ideas that radical. I never thought he threw Wright under the bus so much as said, "There is a line here for me and the church just crossed it".

 

You say Palin should be applauded for *not* abandoning her church for the more extreme views it holds and it baffles me. Palin is standing beside the church she has been involved with, the church that truly believes *every* other belief system or philosophy has been tainted by demonic influence except theirs. Palin herself calls those who don't toe the line "haters". Who is it we're "hating", is it Palin or is it Jesus? If a member of Congress doesn't vote for one of her bills, will they be a "hater" too?

 

Once more, none of her other religious viewpoints would have prompted me to bring up her beliefs as opposed to Obama's, but I just can't even consider having her at the top of the command chain involving nukes when she *won't* distance herself from a stance that makes it more likely that she won't fear mutually assured destruction the way I want my leader to fear it. She used state funds to speak before the Master's Commission graduates (the inner circle of the Third Wave church) and her speech, her very own words, which was posted on the church's website until very recently, is the only thing that she seems to be distancing herself from.

 

You know how, when a major accident is dissected and analysts look back and say, "It was a combination of errors that, alone, would not have mattered, but when they all occurred together, the outcome was disaster"? It's always a bad combo that's responsible, like tired / bad weather / poor visibility / cell phone call / tire blows out. I see a similar bad combo brewing here, like hawk / inexperience / secrecy / Middle Eastern conflict / extremist Christian-Muslim tension / fervent anticipation of end-of-days global apocalypse / suddenly thrust into the #1 spot / "yellow-cake" story about bin Laden being in Iran.

 

And I see Sarah Palin, president now because 1 in 5 presidents leave their offices to their VPs, grinning into the TV cameras and telling Satan to "bring it on".

[ParanoiA]

Well, I concede that your viewpoint is far more thought out than I gave it credit for. I guess, at some point, their religion has to be audited for sanity. I just have a hard time parsing through stuff I don't believe in. From where I sit, we're just trying to determine if believing in purple unicorns is worse than believing in the spaghetti monster.

 

I think your fear about Palin is misplaced. There is nothing about that woman, her success, her husband and their kids, their lives, their general attitudes that would suggest their fear of mutual destruction does not equal mine. Only the religious rhetoric. Of course, that's just completely personal. I've been surrounded by christians my whole life and one of my problems with these folks has always been how on Sunday they are all about "X", while Mon - Sat they're all about "Y". They say some silly things in the pulpit, and the crowd nods their heads to things they'd ridicule others for, yet these same people are quite normal in practice, aside from my judgements.

 

Maybe I'm misapplying this to Palin. Maybe she's far worse than I'm crediting. It just seems the same to me. Far out language and head spinning dogma in the context of religious service, followed by down to earth reasoning in real life, when exercising real decisions.

 

I don't fear religion from any single person I guess, I just reject the institution as a whole and try not pick on individuals. Parsing through their belief systems always unearths weird ideas to me, some of which are dangerous.

 

You know how, when a major accident is dissected and analysts look back and say, "It was a combination of errors that, alone, would not have mattered, but when they all occurred together, the outcome was disaster"? It's always a bad combo that's responsible, like tired / bad weather / poor visibility / cell phone call / tire blows out. I see a similar bad combo brewing here, like hawk / inexperience / secrecy / Middle Eastern conflict / extremist Christian-Muslim tension / fervent anticipation of end-of-days global apocalypse / suddenly thrust into the #1 spot / "yellow-cake" story about bin Laden being in Iran.

 

That's a great point.

[Phi for All]

Well, I concede that your viewpoint is far more thought out than I gave it credit for. I guess, at some point, their religion has to be audited for sanity. I just have a hard time parsing through stuff I don't believe in. From where I sit, we're just trying to determine if believing in purple unicorns is worse than believing in the spaghetti monster.

From the standpoint of beliefs, most of the things the religious extremists are all about are just basically decent ideas, taken to the extreme. You are right, it's pointless to qualify most of it because it *is* harmless.

 

I think your fear about Palin is misplaced. There is nothing about that woman, her success, her husband and their kids, their lives, their general attitudes that would suggest their fear of mutual destruction does not equal mine. Only the religious rhetoric.

And if Palin has the launch codes in hand, do you doubt she'll take a moment to pray for guidance, and do you doubt that it will be the religious rhetoric she has been schooled in since her baptism in the Third Wave church at the age of twelve she'll hear?

Of course, that's just completely personal. I've been surrounded by christians my whole life and one of my problems with these folks has always been how on Sunday they are all about "X", while Mon - Sat they're all about "Y". They say some silly things in the pulpit, and the crowd nods their heads to things they'd ridicule others for, yet these same people are quite normal in practice, aside from my judgements.

Definitely not the fanatics I'm talking about here.

Maybe I'm misapplying this to Palin. Maybe she's far worse than I'm crediting. It just seems the same to me. Far out language and head spinning dogma in the context of religious service, followed by down to earth reasoning in real life, when exercising real decisions.

As you pointed out, she's standing behind her church. Have you seen the trailer for the Third Wave Master's Commission movie? It's the first video on the page. At about 00:46 they use the image of missiles shooting out of Alaska to strike the lower 48 and eventually the rest of the globe. The world is consumed in a firestorm as the announcer says, "The Master's commission is one of the keys in God's plan for Alaska, the United States, and the entire world".

 

I think what Palin is standing behind is very disturbing.

 

I don't fear religion from any single person I guess, I just reject the institution as a whole and try not pick on individuals. Parsing through their belief systems always unearths weird ideas to me, some of which are dangerous.

Most religious ideas, especially the extreme ones, would never gain support in our political system. There are too many checks and balances. I also don't fear them.

 

But potentially putting nukes in the hands of someone who believes it might serve God to launch them is just insane, it bypasses too many checks and balances. Isn't this one of our fears of radical Islam? We've seen how promises of divine favor can induce people to disregard human life. Part of the job of President / VP is being able to make the right decision for all of us if it ever came to such a crisis. A big factor in that decision is how likely that first launch will lead to MAD and we can't trust that Sarah Palin won't just shrug that off to God's will, believing that she'll be fulfilling prophecy.