Neutron Sources anyone?

[JazzRWill]

Would a Farnsworth/Hirsch Fusor be a good enough neutron source to use for synthesis of Au-197 from Hg-196? Can anyone recommend an alternate, safe source?

 

Jazz

[hermanntrude]

it's actually really easy to make gold, that's why everyone goes round with suitcases full of it.

[Klaynos]

To do this in reasonable quantities don't you needs something like oh I don't know.... this...

[John Cuthber]

More like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova

I think.

Anyway, no neutron source is "safe".

[Klaynos]

By reasonable I was going for maybe a few micrograms.... heeh

 

 

And agreed, no source is safe, free neutrons will be captured and what captures them will decay...

[liquidweaver]

If you are curious, there are 2 methods in which a normal person (albeit pretty geeky) could generate measurable amounts of Au-197 from Hg-196.

 

1.) Grab a good proton emitter like Polonium or Radium, and mix it up in a blender with heap of a low-z element, like Beryllium or Lithium. You might get up to 1x10^9 neutrons per second if mixed right (although you'll prolly want to throw away the blender, it will become activated and very unsuitable for making smoothies afterwards)

 

2.) You could purchase a bar of Californium-252, which throws out neutrons all by it's lonesome. For around $25k, you get a little bar with a half life of about two and a half years a that will emit a mean amount of 1x10^8 neutrons per second. Not cheap, but feasible.

 

I'm sure there are some I haven't thought of, but that ought to get you started. I supposed you could also open a ton of smoke detectors and take out the Americium and mix it into a matrix with lithium (like 2 above), but that would probably take a long time.

 

Have fun, and always remember - for shielding, cover your high-z lead shield with a good beta absorber (like wood).

 

Cheers.

[John Cuthber]

Do you have any idea how big a radium+ beryllium source you would need to produce anything like 10^9 neutrons a second?

Do you have any idea how little Au197 you could make with 10^9 neutrons a second?

My guess is that you don't, because if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't think Ra and Po were proton sources.

[liquidweaver]

Do you have any idea how big a radium+ beryllium source you would need to produce anything like 10^9 neutrons a second?

 

Yes.

 

Do you have any idea how little Au197 you could make with 10^9 neutrons a second?

 

Yes.

 

My guess is that you don't, because if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't think Ra and Po were proton sources.

 

You guessed wrong; and Ra and Po decay plenty alpha radiation. What isotopes are you referring to?

 

And it doesn't matter anyways - don't take my post so seriously - just because the methods are plausible doesn't mean they are practical. There is more than a slight undertone of sarcasm in my original post, which you missed.

[John Cuthber]

Sarcasm is all very well, it seems it can be missed in either direction.

Anyway, please let me know what isotopes of Ra or Po emit protons rather than He nuclei?

[jdurg]

Actually John, he was talking about mixing it with Be which, if mixed intimately enough, will produce quite a large number of neutrons as the Be absorbs the alpha particles and spits out neutrons. As a stand alone source (e.g. without the beryllium), you're correct in that neither of those elements will give you any neutrons to count.

[Gilded]

You guessed wrong; and Ra and Po decay plenty alpha radiation. What isotopes are you referring to?.

 

Alpha source =/= proton source... A proton source (as in just the production of free protons) doesn't necessarily have anything to with radioactivity as you can just strip the electrons of gaseous hydrogen with relative ease. While alpha particles can increase the proton count of a nuclei I would refrain from calling alpha emitters proton sources.

 

Also, I started wondering whether gold is actually less expensive than Hg-196... While mercury itself is cheap as hell I'd imagine isotope enrichment from the 0.15% natural concentration is quite expensive.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Gilded

[liquidweaver]

Gilded, you got me. Thanks for the correction. I'm rather new at this stuff.

[John Cuthber]

I'm still waiting to hear from liquidweaver what isotopes of Ra and Po emit protons. He seems to have spotted that Gilded realised this was a valid question. Just wondering how he didn't realise that when I asked.

[jdurg]

I'm just wondering where the discussion of Ra and Po being proton sources came in. I can only see posts stating that they are neutron sources.........

[YT2095]

a strong alpha source and Be, combined as their respective oxides (finer powder and greater chemical stability) cast into pellet and then surrounded by a layer of paraffin wax or even LDPE or LDPP, would work as neutron source.

 

I think it should be pointed out that Be is insanely toxic! and that MOX reactors are NOT toys.

last but not least, without the correct permits and equipment you`d probably be breaking more laws than Santa has items on his shopping list!

 

of all the radiations types, Neutrons are Well Scary!

[jdurg]

I wouldn't consdier Be to be "insanely" toxic. It's not good for you, that's mostly in the form of the powdered metal as it causes a very nasty allegic reaction inside your lungs which is quite debilitating and potentilaly deadly. The ionic forms of Be, or the solid forms, I don't believe are nearly as nasty. It's not like arsenic which is bad for you in all senses of the word.

[John Cuthber]

I'm just wondering where the discussion of Ra and Po being proton sources came in. I can only see posts stating that they are neutron sources.........

 

Liquidsilver's first post

"1.) Grab a good proton emitter like Polonium or Radium"

(and the posts telling him he's wrong)

[jdurg]

I believe that's a typo in his initial post because all of his following statements are those you would make if you replaced "proton" with "neutron".

[Ladeira]

If you are curious, there are 2 methods in which a normal person (albeit pretty geeky) could generate measurable amounts of Au-197 from Hg-196.

 

1.) Grab a good proton emitter like Polonium or Radium, and mix it up in a blender with heap of a low-z element, like Beryllium or Lithium. You might get up to 1x10^9 neutrons per second if mixed right (although you'll prolly want to throw away the blender, it will become activated and very unsuitable for making smoothies afterwards)

 

2.) You could purchase a bar of Californium-252, which throws out neutrons all by it's lonesome. For around $25k, you get a little bar with a half life of about two and a half years a that will emit a mean amount of 1x10^8 neutrons per second. Not cheap, but feasible.

 

I'm sure there are some I haven't thought of, but that ought to get you started. I supposed you could also open a ton of smoke detectors and take out the Americium and mix it into a matrix with lithium (like 2 above), but that would probably take a long time.

 

Have fun, and always remember - for shielding, cover your high-z lead shield with a good beta absorber (like wood).

 

Cheers.

 

My God! We've got a cake recipe!

(I couldn't avoid the joke, I'm sorry)

 

I can't help guys, I have no experience about it.