Bones popping noise..

[mooeypoo]

Hey,

 

Hearing the joints 'crack' is nothing new to me, of course, but I never really researched the real reason.

 

Someone told me it's bubbles within the joints, but I've never researched this.

 

Recently, my knees have been talking.. a lot. I mean, every two movements (literally) they pop. It's not usually painful, I barely feel it, but it's quite disconcerting. I'm already scheduling a doc's appointment, but it takes a while to get a specialist, and for now I'm kinda weirded out.

 

Can anyone help out with an attempted guess at what may cause this?

I'm not in top shape but I have been training in the gym, and I've tried to refrain from running on the treadmill, and using those elliptical machines instead (to get a more 'fluid' motion, I was told it is better on the joints).

 

In any case, this is weird...

 

Thanks!

 

~moo

[Monomer]

A chiropractor I saw told me the popping sound was air escaping from the joints.

 

I assumed the guy knew what he was talking about, but I just checked it out and it appears to be the reason.

 

Apparently if there's no pain with the noise then it's okay, but if you experience pain then there's a more serious issue. Getting into better shape and strengthing the muscles is recommended, and I also think it's better to avoid exercises that put too much stain on the knees, like running, so hopefully the elliptical machine will benefit you.

 

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/injuries/a/aa092500.htm

http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/arthritis/g/crackingjoints.htm

http://www.orthop.washington.edu/uw/arthritisbasics/tabID__3376/ItemID__180/PageID__348/Articles/Default.aspx

[YT2095]

I`m fairly sure it`s actually the displacement of Synovial fluid in the joints that causes this, and not air.

[iNow]

Further, working out makes your muscles stronger, so there is greater compression strength being exerted on the bones and joints. So, while you and your bones are getting stronger, there is more force pushing on both (so whether it be air or Synovial fluid or whatever).

[mooeypoo]

Further, working out makes your muscles stronger, so there is greater compression strength being exerted on the bones and joints. So, while you and your bones are getting stronger, there is more force pushing on both (so whether it be air or Synovial fluid or whatever).

 

So the fact that it started happening much more after I started working out in the gym, is.. logical.. i guess.

 

Well, thanks for the info guys I think I'll see a doc just in case, since occasionally it does hurt and it's not very comfortable, and.. well.. I would rather be safe than sorry

 

But you've certainly helped me handle the weirdness

[iNow]

Btw... It's quite good that your bones are being pushed harder. While I still don't know the source of the popping sound, I do know that working out makes bones denser, will cause new bone mass to develop, and cause the likelihood of breaks and fractures now and into old age to greatly diminish.

 

When I practiced kung fu, bone strengthening was so important that we even did compression only exercises, isometric I think they're called. We also would whack our arms against fence posts and roll iron bars on our shins. Hurt like the dickens, but damn my bones were dense and popping.

 

Will you let us know what the doctor says? I've always been curious about this myself and have never really received a good answer.

[Monomer]

Another thought on the popping sound... my ankle pops alot and the physio explained that it occurred when the ligaments moved against the joint. It could be a similar thing in your knee and if it's happened more since you've started going to the gym then maybe it's because you're stretching those ligaments more...?

 

Anyway, like iNow said, let us know the doctor's opinion.

[big314mp]

Another thought on the popping sound... my ankle pops alot and the physio explained that it occurred when the ligaments moved against the joint. It could be a similar thing in your knee and if it's happened more since you've started going to the gym then maybe it's because you're stretching those ligaments more...?

 

I've heard this also, but for my neck.

[Catharsis]

Yea from what I know it’s this “air” business; however, what I keep in my mind is this: What is warming up? Well it’s brining moister to the joints and it’s that moisture differential that ends up, drying up (for the next day) that (to me) creates the pockets of air. Sounds about right. No? So to me I think of it as a dry sponge VS. a moist one. Dose any of this lead to arthritis (early or otherwise)? I don’t know - but for me - a little warming up [“what?” Bring moister to the area] would probably go a long way....

 

Also: the idea behind holding your breath when “squatting” is to increase internal pressure, meaning compacting muscle against bone (like what a wight belt is for) “via” your blood vessels - and “remember” every cell in your body has a capillary next to it. is a good thing. However not the greatest thing for your brain. So finding that middle ground of blowing your air out during a strain (lift) seems to be the common advice; might help with “squatting”... More blood flow more moisture, more pressure.

[blazarwolf]

Yes its common and is often just Air (I read something on drinking soda alongggg time ago, I think it was bullshit though). It can also be floating chunks of cartilage. Im only 22, all my joints seem to pop and crack. The only 2 that hurt is my neck and my shoulders. My neck is from whats called "huck neck", its a skier thing... when I broke my sternum I learned from X-ray I have minor dual AC (shoulder) separations. This is what prevents me from doing lateral raises when lifting. Instead I have to do the girly lat shooters, it sucks. I often think its best to just work through it (especially if it doesent hurt) rather than let it fill your thoughts.

[big314mp]

As in permanently separated shoulders? Or just for the time being?

[blazarwolf]

As in permanently separated shoulders? Or just for the time being?

 

Um, well yeah. There called AC separations. Its a tear to what holds bone to bone (ligaments) mine are minor, doc called them 3rd degree.. most people get them from throwing to many baseballs or banging there shoulder hard. Shin separations (shin bang) I know have a capacity to heal.. never learned this, but know it from expirence. No idea why.

[YT2095]

for the last time, it is NOT air!

[big314mp]

Um, well yeah. There called AC separations. Its a tear to what holds bone to bone (ligaments) mine are minor, doc called them 3rd degree.. most people get them from throwing to many baseballs or banging there shoulder hard. Shin separations (shin bang) I know have a capacity to heal.. never learned this, but know it from expirence. No idea why.

 

If you mean the same thing I do when you say "AC separation", 3rd degree isn't minor at all. I had a 1st degree last spring, and it took the better part of 2 months to come back to full strength.

 

Best of luck on your recovery though. Take it easy for a while.

[Catharsis]

Yea - I alway wondered about it being “air”.... But what do I know about the microscopic world.... But if you ask me - it’s sure a loud pop “from the microscopic world”... Hate to see what Microscopic fart’s sound like (right?)...

 

So if it’s Synovial fluid, what’s making the noise? A fluid differential or something?

 

Air seems to fit the bill. A space forms after drying up from being saturated (however microscopic). Hence warming up (bringing moister to the area) stops the popping.

 

Unless what your saying is - the commodity in the knee - meaning the “moister” IS Synovial fluid [that get’s dried up - leaving behind a pocket of air] Yes?

[YT2095]

for a start, Where would this air come from?

the Human body (other than the Lungs) is not designed to have pockets of air in it at all, it can lead to anything from collapsed lungs to blood clots, and although it Can deal with small amounts entering the system (cuts/surgery etc...) by slowly absorbing it, these are Not the normal cases.

there are instances (exceptional) whereby pressure can be so dramatically lowered in a liquid as to expand existing gases or even create gases due to vapor pressure, however these return back to their original "size" and state as soon as the condition is no longer met.

[Catharsis]

Yea - I always questioned “air” but that’s all I hear, all the time, as to why knuckles crack - “air”.

 

So how dose Synovial fluid make the popping sound?

[xnebulalordx676]

I have air build up with my own joints all the time. So I pop.

Appears eating dry processed foods adds to this sort of gas buildup and also potatoes.

 

I read that magnesium actually strengthens bones more so than calcium. That the calcium be of no worry since that gets produced by the body but the magnesium doesn't get produced.

 

I know that this does not be air but rather a gas. I also know this sound of popping does not come from the bones but rather joints and cartilage. I trust the gas buildup be from acidic food rather than alkaline. So what if sometimes we do refer to this air as we are not writing a 'pub med' doctrine or thesis but simply communicating to each other.

[mooeypoo]

Bubbles are not necessarily AIR bubbles.. they can be fluid bubbles. YT is right, there's no reason air should go into the joints, not unless something's quite wrong. Perhaps it was my mistake to write it this way, but when I wrote someone told me it's bubbles, I didn't mean air.

 

In any case, I'm still waiting for a doc's appointment, so no news so far

 

~moo

[blazarwolf]

If you mean the same thing I do when you say "AC separation", 3rd degree isn't minor at all. I had a 1st degree last spring, and it took the better part of 2 months to come back to full strength.

 

Best of luck on your recovery though. Take it easy for a while.

 

Yeah AC refers to Acro-clavicular, i believe its synonomous with shoulder separation... maybe i got it backwards from what the doc said. Mine were the most minor, they happend ages ago, the doc just saw them on my x-ray (cracked sternum).

 

I fully agree its a misconception that its air... 98% of the time atleast.

[Glider]

YT is right, but in answer to the question "Where would this air come from?", the answer is that all body fluids hold gas in solution and it really doesn't take that much force to pull them out of solution. It's not 'air' per se, but nitrogen and other gasses.

 

there are instances (exceptional) whereby pressure can be so dramatically lowered in a liquid as to expand existing gases or even create gases due to vapor pressure, however these return back to their original "size" and state as soon as the condition is no longer met.

 

This is absolutely true, but it's not that exceptional and doesn't actually require that much force. As a demonstration of the principle, take a 5ml or 10ml syringe and fill it 3/4 with water (but leave no air space in it). Wet your thumb and place it over the leur tip to seal the syringe, then draw back on the plunger. You will see dissolved gasses boil out of solution and you'll notice that it reallydoesn't take much force to do it.

 

Consider the leverage and force involved in the movement of a simple hinge joint (e.g. knees). When crouching down, a person is applying their full body weight onto those joints. Given that a comparitively gentle pull on a 10ml syringe is enough to boil gasses out of solution, you can see that there is more than enough force involved.

 

And again, YT is right, insofar as "these [bubbles] return back to their original "size" and state as soon as the condition is no longer met". They do. In fact, they do so extremely quickly, imploding and creating shockwaves. The process of pulling gas or vapour out of solution and the bubbles collapsing, producing shockwaves is known as cavitation.

 

The cracking noise from popping joints is down to cavitation. Some movements of joints result in an increased vacuum in the sinovial fluid between the mating surfaces within the joint capsule. This is often sufficient to bring gas out of solution. When this happens, tiny bubbles form and the sound is produced when these bubbles implode as the joint is moved back relieving the vacuum.

 

A good example in practice should be familiar to anyone who dives (scuba). If you go on a diving holiday and dive regularly for a several days or a week, you have probably noticed that your knees (and other joints) pop a lot more than usual. This is due to the buildup of nitrogen in the body and with the higher saturation of nitrogen, it's pulled out of solution much more easily. It gasses off after a few days without diving and the joint popping stops (my mate was a NAUI instructor and at the end of a weeks' teaching, diving twice a day, he could barely move without something cracking).

 

If the cracking noise of joints was due to the movement of ligaments or tendons, as has been suggested, then we need to explain why the frequency of joint popping increases with increased nitrogen in the system, but with no alteration of ligament and tendon conformation.

[CRANC]

when the joint capsule opens, the synovial membrane "flushes" the joint with synovial fluid for lubrication and protection. little N bubbles build up within the joint, and, with the right force, you can pop the N bubbles.

/debate about arthritis!

[Mokele]

when the joint capsule opens, the synovial membrane "flushes" the joint with synovial fluid for lubrication and protection.

 

Joint capsules do not open, ever, without incredibly traumatic injury.

[mooeypoo]

BTW, guys, I stopped working out for a WHILLLEEE (tough semester), and the noises stopped. I'm assuming it was the pressure (stronger/tighter muscles) on my joints.

 

If it comes back I'll check with a doctor

 

Thanks for the info, though. Very revealing.

[CRANC]

Joint capsules do not open, ever, without incredibly traumatic injury.

 

bad wording my friend, was late last night =] u know what i mean!